Mayson's Top 20 Buys

[djewesbury]

In the December issue of Decanter, our old friend Richard Mayson makes 20 recommendations for ports to buy today, in a variety of styles. I thought it was an interesting but idiosyncratic list – good, a list the same as my own would have been very dull. What do others make of his picks? In the order he mentions them (which does not imply a ranking), he lists:

1. Fonseca 94
2. Taylor 94
3. Warre 11
4. Niepoort 70 (at £141.66!)
5. Noval 12
6. Fonseca 85
7. Dow Senhora da Ribeira 04
8. Niepoort Bioma 11
9. Croft Quinta da Roêda 12
10. Graham Quinta dos Malvedos 01
11. Niepoort 09 LBV
12. Fonseca 08 LBV
13. Ramos Pinto 09 LBV
14. Ramos Pinto Bom Retiro 20YO (at £54.99)
15. Sandeman 30YO
16. Ferreira Duque de Bragança 20YO
17. Warre Otima 10YO
18. Dalva Golden White Colheita 63
19. Taylor Single Harvest Tawny 64
20. Fonseca Terra Prima

Only one vintage that's indisputably 'ready to drink', not in a teenage phase, not a newborn, and it's a very fully-priced, hard-to-find one; fairly good choices on the SQVPs though. The Niepoort LBV is not listed as unfiltered, because, of course, it's not the Niepoort way to let anyone know it is. Hence the Fonseca (described as unfiltered) appears to have some kind of edge over the Ni. Bom Retiro 20YO seems poor value at the price listed. The Dalva 71 is better and easier to get. No other tawny colheita than the Taylorkrohn? And when he says of the Terra Prima that 'reserve port doesn't get better than this' I feel I have to disagree. I've found it quite harsh when I've had it.

Thoughts?

[LGTrotter]

Well, idiosyncratic is one word. Random and impenetrable would be two I might add. Does he mean for drinking today? Or is he thinking of value? Lists, by their nature are intended to add order to the world. This list adds to the choas of it. It may make more sense if I read the accompanying article but alas I am still digging my way through the Decanter wine awards supplement, the top twelvty chardonnays from Wasiristan. I may win through to the December issue by spring.

[djewesbury]

Wasiristan is finished, the Chinese burst the market.

I think he is suggesting that these are good value for buying across the years coming up. But yes, it is an oddish list.

[LGTrotter]

Fonseca and Taylor 1994 do not seem like value to me, or Krohylor 64 (this compound word needs some work). The Terra Prima isn't bad, popular due to the organic thing I suppose.

[djewesbury]

Niepoort 70 is only listed from one supplier; it's such a wilfully obscure recommendation that if I didn't believe in the utter probity of all concerned I'd almost say that someone was trying to shift a job lot. And £141.66 is NOT good value for a 1970.

[LGTrotter]

Exactly. It seems all the more odd because I rate Richard as a man who knows his onions. I wonder if the evil genius at the dark heart of Decanter has meddled in some way. I should add that I have no evidence of the evil genius theory other than the outré recommendations which pepper it's pages.

[djewesbury]

It would be nice if the others chipped in wouldn't it. Now that we more or less agree with each other. Can you get their attention with the shiny thing somehow?

[LGTrotter]

I have simply been ignoring the elephant in the room for the sake of politeness. To recommend a white port is the height of poor taste and judgement. It is the most inexplicable drink, reminding me of things which try to be fashionable but are ultimately doomed to failure, I would cite footless tights and the onesie as examples of this from another field.

And perhaps they are simply enjoying our erudite flicking of the shuttlecock of conversation. Perhaps not.

[djewesbury]

Have you never had the Golden White Colheitas?
That is not 'White Port', at least not as you imply.

[djewesbury]

Yes I can see how our banter, which trills like a clear mountain stream, could put others off from entering the conversation, such a high level has it already reached.

[LGTrotter]

Have you never had the Golden White Colheitas?
That is not 'White Port', at least not as you imply.

I take it from this that you do own a onesie. Does it have animal ears, or look like a banana?

[djewesbury]

Have you never had the Golden White Colheitas?
That is not 'White Port', at least not as you imply.

I take it from this that you do own a onesie. Does it have animal ears, or look like a banana?

It looks like the Green Man and terrifies all the children nearby. I think you need to try a Dalva.

[flash_uk]

It's just an article to fill some pages in Decanter and allow them to explain some things about port to novices. As such, this does cause me to think hard about whether I should afford any substance to other articles I might read in Decanter, like "Exploring Rioja" or "Top 20 Barolo". If articles such as those were of similar quality and insight as this port article, I'd be wasting my time reading them.

On Richard's top 20, top 20 for who, and why these? I get the GM01, but why on earth would you recommend Ni70 over F70? Why recommend 3 LBVs? Trying to answer these questions is also pointless because the whole idea of "Top 20" is pointless. Instead of top 20, it might have been more useful to say: "A selection of 20 ports to explore the variety of port styles." Even then, having just one VP older than 85 makes it hardly a decent selection. Have I said how pointless this all is?

[djewesbury]

It's just an article to fill some pages in Decanter and allow them to explain some things about port to novices. As such, this does cause me to think hard about whether I should afford any substance to other articles I might read in Decanter, like "Exploring Rioja" or "Top 20 Barolo". If articles such as those were of similar quality and insight as this port article, I'd be wasting my time reading them.

On Richard's top 20, top 20 for who, and why these? I get the GM01, but why on earth would you recommend Ni70 over F70? Why recommend 3 LBVs? Trying to answer these questions is also pointless because the whole idea of "Top 20" is pointless. Instead of top 20, it might have been more useful to say: "A selection of 20 ports to explore the variety of port styles." Even then, having just one VP older than 85 makes it hardly a decent selection. Have I said how pointless this all is?

I fear that my title might be a little misleading, I don't think RM bills these as his 'Top 20'. The article is intended to be an introduction to the various styles of Port, yes. Some styles are covered with no recommendations (e.g. Crusted) while others are more lavishly recommended (LBV as you point out). Yes, it is hard to know who this is for; what novice is seriously going to think about spending £140 on something s/he knows nothing about? But then, these aren't investment wines, or wines that are all ready to drink now, or all for laying down. Nor are they all 'best value' buys, or even straightforward 'best buys'.

This is perhaps the problem of trying to cover all port styles in one short article. I think, given the full page ads taken out by producers around and throughout the article, we might look on this as a piece of advertorial, with some less than obvious rationale for the various ports considered. And as you say, that seems to be what constitutes a lot of the magazine.

[PhilW]

I have simply been ignoring the elephant in the room for the sake of politeness. To recommend a white port is the height of poor taste and judgement. It is the most inexplicable drink, reminding me of things which try to be fashionable but are ultimately doomed to failure, I would cite footless tights and the onesie as examples of this from another field

In regard to the current fashion of young white (or pink) ports I would agree, but some of the older whites are superb, and the Dalva Golden Whites are most certainly not the elephants to which you refer. I would have picked the 71 over the 63, but delicious ports. Some of the rest of the list seem to be a widely varying mishmash - was there any more context to this list in the main article?

[djewesbury]

I have simply been ignoring the elephant in the room for the sake of politeness. To recommend a white port is the height of poor taste and judgement. It is the most inexplicable drink, reminding me of things which try to be fashionable but are ultimately doomed to failure, I would cite footless tights and the onesie as examples of this from another field

In regard to the current fashion of young white (or pink) ports I would agree, but some of the older whites are superb, and the Dalva Golden Whites are most certainly not the elephants to which you refer. I would have picked the 71 over the 63, but delicious ports. Some of the rest of the list seem to be a widely varying mishmash - was there any more context to this list in the main article?

There was a little general information on each style of Port. And then a short para of TN blurb after each recommended wine.

[LGTrotter]

I have not tried the Dalva, nor do I intend to. To save time I should also add that I will not be buying pink Chateau Giscours, red wine from Germany or champagne from the Levant. Hidebound as these attitudes may be they have served me well in avoiding an evening of drinking where I wished I was drinking something else. People who judgements I trust, yourself included mon cher, have extolled the virtues of white port. I have yet to think of one. I think we should also consider those who come after us, they need to be in full possession of the facts; white port has very little to do with port and generally tastes wrong. As I have suggested in other conversations the red wines, white ports, brandies of the duoro are not where it is at, for me at least.

And now I see Phil has joined the chorus of Babel to lead us all to madness and collapse. White port? Tchah.

[PhilW]

Thx Daniel, your reply while I was typing I think answered the context question sufficiently - simply a selection of ports to discuss the range available rather than any form of top 20. All makes more sense now. (so top 20 was just "marketing" then )

[RAYC]

Niepoort 70 is only listed from one supplier; it's such a wilfully obscure recommendation that if I didn't believe in the utter probity of all concerned I'd almost say that someone was trying to shift a job lot. And £141.66 is NOT good value for a 1970.

I've only had Niepoort 1970 five times, but four of those bottles (including one which I took to R. Mayson's 50th back in 2011, one which was supplied by Niepoort for the BFT tasting, and one which we had at Griff's farewell dinner) have stood out for me as being in the very top tier of 1970s. I might have had equally enjoyable 1970s, but nothing categorically better across multiple bottles (albeit I have not had the Nacional even once, let alone enough times to form a reliable opinion). In terms of bottles i open from my own cellar, it has also been the most reliably excellent.

Combine that with the relative scarcity compared to other 1970s and £141.66 does not seem bad value to me - so i'm not sure there's anything particularly sinister in R. Mayson pointing out that there's a large stock of a wonderful and rare port currently available on the UK market and including that as a "top buy". I'd be a buyer at that price if it weren't for the particular provenance of those bottles (a Portuguese restaurant - bottles bought in a liquidation sale).

[djewesbury]

Niepoort 70 is only listed from one supplier; it's such a wilfully obscure recommendation that if I didn't believe in the utter probity of all concerned I'd almost say that someone was trying to shift a job lot. And £141.66 is NOT good value for a 1970.

I've only had Niepoort 1970 five times, but four of those bottles (including one which I took to R. Mayson's 50th back in 2011, one which was supplied by Niepoort for the BFT tasting, and one which we had at Griff's farewell dinner) have stood out for me as being in the very top tier of 1970s. I might have had equally enjoyable 1970s, but nothing categorically better across multiple bottles (albeit I have not had the Nacional even once, let alone enough times to form a reliable opinion).

Combine that with the relative scarcity compared to other 1970s and £141.66 does not seem bad value to me - so i'm not sure there's anything particularly sinister in R. Mayson pointing out that there's a large stock of a wonderful and rare port currently available on the UK market and including that as a "top buy". I'd be a buyer at that price if it weren't for the particular provenance of those bottles (a Portuguese restaurant - bottles bought in a liquidation sale).

That's as may be; but then this is the ringer in the group, because it is the only fully mature Port described in an article supposedly written for novices. Surely there are other Ports you would recommend first before discussing Ni70? You've said yourself that this might only be touched, in terms of 1970s, by the Nacional you've not had. Thus this seems out of place. Oddly so.

[PhilW]

That's as may be; but then this is the ringer in the group, because it is the only fully mature Port described in an article supposedly written for novices. Surely there are other Ports you would recommend first before discussing Ni70? You've said yourself that this might only be touched, in terms of 1970s, by the Nacional you've not had. Thus this seems out of place. Oddly so.

It's an interesting one - I've had three different typical discussions with port-novices in this regard; The first is the classic "let's try one of each style" to see what someone likes, and essentially (typically) to show someone who likes the occasional ruby ordered in a restaurant how much better things can be; The second has been someone asking what to buy when wanted a "decent good vintage port" but at minimum cost (to which I usually recommend a SQ '96 or '83/'85); The last, less common, is someone wanting to buy a single bottle of "fabulous" port, to see what the 'best' can be like (to a relative novice) where I would probably recommend F70. The combination I've not had, which perhaps this article may be trying to address, could be "what are some really very good ports (without going to exotica) which I could get to try all the types" - it would seem to make more sense in such a context, including some younger etc, though I would have included at least a couple more mature VPs myself.

[PhilW]

I have not tried the Dalva, nor do I intend to.
...
People who judgements I trust, yourself included mon cher, have extolled the virtues of white port.
...
nd now I see Phil has joined the chorus of Babel to lead us all to madness and collapse. White port? Tchah.

For me, the corollaries of "aged" (40+) and "sweet" are crucial here; I have had some delicious aged, sweet, white port. I find the young white ports abhorrent, and am very much not a fan of the old non-sweet whites (though can at least appreciate them, like old Oloroso sherry, just not my thing). I would not generally recommend someone who likes vintage port to try "white port", but I would strongly urge someone who likes old vintage port and old tawnies to try an aged sweet white port (with Dalva Golden White '71 as an ideal example).

[djewesbury]

I have not tried the Dalva, nor do I intend to.
...
People who judgements I trust, yourself included mon cher, have extolled the virtues of white port.
...
nd now I see Phil has joined the chorus of Babel to lead us all to madness and collapse. White port? Tchah.

For me, the corollaries of "aged" (40+) and "sweet" are crucial here; I have had some delicious aged, sweet, white port. I find the young white ports abhorrent, and am very much not a fan of the old non-sweet whites (though can at least appreciate them, like old Oloroso sherry, just not my thing). I would not generally recommend someone who likes vintage port to try "white port", but I would strongly urge someone who likes old vintage port and old tawnies to try an aged sweet white port (with Dalva Golden White '71 as an ideal example).

Hear, hear! The voice of reason! Owen, I think we need to put some of this stuff in your oats when you come up to the Port Walk.

[djewesbury]

I had some really lovely red wines from Germany, just for information.

[flash_uk]

The leader for the article says "...reviews the main styles and latest trends, and picks out his top 20 to buy".

Who knows...perhaps Richard is sitting reading "his" article thinking "those muppets at Decanter...I didn't pick my top 20 to buy, just a handful of examples in some of the categories."

[djewesbury]

The leader for the article says "...reviews the main styles and latest trends, and picks out his top 20 to buy".

You're right. My mea culpa was unnecessary.

Who knows...perhaps Richard is sitting reading "his" article thinking "those muppets at Decanter...I didn't pick my top 20 to buy, just a handful of examples in some of the categories."

And lamenting the fact that the fee for the article probably wouldn't even cover two bottles of Ni70.

[RAYC]

This is in decanter magazine right? So while it may be aimed at people who don't drink much port, I struggle to see that it is aimed at novices.

Presumably he wanted to highlight 1970 (alongside 85 and 94) as one of the top vintages of the latter part of C20, as well as having at least one "mature" port in his list. So (if I were in his shoes) I'd rule out 1970 Fonseca, Graham and Dow immediately (all of which are too primary still to fulfil that role) and hesitate over Taylor (too much variation between bottlings to make it a simple recommendation). There are others he could have picked (Warre), but Niepoort 70, Fonseca 85 and Taylor 94 is a pretty good / safe grail list spanning those decades.

In terms of the remaining VP recommendations, i can see the rationale behind recommending Roeda 12 / Noval 12 (a value pick / current en primeur pick), Malvedos 01 (supermarket pick), Bioma / Warre 2011 (recent "great vintage" picks), and if you look through his TN's he has consistently rated Dow Ribeira very highly across a number of vintages (including the 04 here, where he described it as a "wow of a wine").

For TWAIOAs, I can't argue with Sandeman 30 (perhaps San Leonardo, but you have to go to Porto to get it) and Otima is the best 10 i've tried outside those that only seem to be available in Porto. 20s are going to split any debate, but I don't think his picks are outside the consensus "top tier" 20s.

So in terms of picking a handful of ports in each category with UK availability as "top buys", keeping a judicious balance between producers (and presumably also being particularly sensitive to any charges of favouritism because of the Blandy-Symington connection), is the list really that strange?

[idj123]

Others here are more informed than I but it certainly seems a little left field to plump for the Ni70 in preference to the for example more readily accessible (in terms of price and availability) Cr70 which as evidenced from the other night is drinking perfectly at the moment and will continue to do so for some time. The Tayrohn64 was bested by the Pocas64 at the Glenn tasting and is half the price of the former. At the risk of more of Owen's ire, the once a decade Dalva Golden White's really are lovely honeyed wines.

[RAYC]

Adding Croft (or Fonseca for that matter) would mean that the pre-00 VPs were represented solely by TFP.

[flash_uk]

Adding Croft (or Fonseca for that matter) would mean that the pre-00 VPs were represented solely by TFP.

[flash_uk]

So in terms of picking a handful of ports in each category with UK availability as "top buys", keeping a judicious balance between producers (and presumably also being particularly sensitive to any charges of favouritism because of the Blandy-Symington connection), is the list really that strange?

I think the list is much more understandable as a set of recommendations in each of the respective categories. It's the "Top 20" thing which doesn't make much sense. Given the challenge of exposing someone to 20 ports, I would not for example put 3 LBVs in the 20.

[Glenn E.]

I have not tried the Dalva, nor do I intend to.

Hear, hear! The voice of reason! Owen, I think we need to put some of this stuff in your oats when you come up to the Port Walk.

Too bad the forum's pet dog wasn't around for the pre-harvest tour tasting.

[LGTrotter]

Have I said how pointless this all is?

Attaboy, I much prefer this grey damp blanket of pessimism to the wide eyed shouts of joy.

This is in decanter magazine right? So while it may be aimed at people who don't drink much port, I struggle to see that it is aimed at novices.

Presumably he wanted to highlight 1970 (alongside 85 and 94) as one of the top vintages of the latter part of C20, as well as having at least one "mature" port in his list. So (if I were in his shoes) I'd rule out 1970 Fonseca, Graham and Dow immediately (all of which are too primary still to fulfil that role) and hesitate over Taylor (too much variation between bottlings to make it a simple recommendation). There are others he could have picked (Warre), but Niepoort 70, Fonseca 85 and Taylor 94 is a pretty good / safe grail list spanning those decades.

So in terms of picking a handful of ports in each category with UK availability as "top buys", keeping a judicious balance between producers (and presumably also being particularly sensitive to any charges of favouritism because of the Blandy-Symington connection), is the list really that strange?

The first point is well made and true, this is not aimed at the total novice. The second about the choice of a 1970 I am less convinced by. It is true that I have not tried the Niepoort 1970 but that reflects its scarcity, whereas if I was looking for a novice 1970, or a value 1970 I should probably start with Warre or the Croft. The Fonseca 85 I doubt anybody would quibble with (Taylor, anyone? *snorts derisively*) but the Fonseca and Taylor 94 both seem remarkably overpriced and unlikely to make the novice feel that port is good value. So I would reiterate my first point that the choice seems random rather than suggestive of an underlying plan.

At the risk of more of Owen's ire, the once a decade Dalva Golden White's really are lovely honeyed wines.

I hope nobody feels put off by my moaning, I really don't mean to.

if I hear the word 'honeyed' one more time I'll throw these 2 bottles of Krohn 64 over the back hedge...

[Glenn E.]

if I hear the word 'honeyed' one more time I'll throw these 2 bottles of Krohn 64 over the back hedge...

*hides behind Owen's back hedge*

HONEYED

*waits patiently*

[CaliforniaBrad]

if I hear the word 'honeyed' one more time I'll throw these 2 bottles of Krohn 64 over the back hedge...

*hides behind Owen's back hedge*

HONEYED

*waits patiently*

+1, since there's two bottles....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkz. U

[PhilW]

if I hear the word 'honeyed' one more time I'll throw these 2 bottles of Krohn 64 over the back hedge...

*hides behind Owen's back hedge*

HONEYED

*waits patiently*

+1, since there's two bottles....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkz. U

It's getting crowded back here, keep your elbows in!

[griff]

I do not think the quality of the Niepoort in question is in question. In my memory at least. The scarcity may be of some concern however, considering the circulation numbers of Decanter. Shhhhh I say

[Alex Bridgeman]

Is it this issue of Decanter which has the back page article on Nacional 1931?

[flash_uk]

Is it this issue of Decanter which has the back page article on Nacional 1931?

Yes, the article titled "Quinta de Noval", and referring to Quinta da Noval within the article.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Is it this issue of Decanter which has the back page article on Nacional 1931?

Yes, the article titled "Quinta de Noval", and referring to Quinta da Noval within the article.

No! Oh how cringingly awful.

[LGTrotter]

Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, we had better be nice about something in Decanter or otherwise DecanterMag will never visit the site again.

Let me start the ball rolling; I think Decanter is less completely irritating and vacuous than most other wine magazines.

[DRT]

Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, we had better be nice about something in Decanter or otherwise DecanterMag will never visit the site again.

Let me start the ball rolling; I think Decanter is less completely irritating and vacuous than most other wine magazines.

Agreed.

I have obtained permission from Decanter to publish the full article here once the current edition leaves the news stands. They have even offered to send me a PDF to make publishing easier. I think that is good form.

[jdaw1]

I have obtained permission from Decanter to publish the full article here once the current edition leaves the news stands. They have even offered to send me a PDF to make publishing easier. I think that is good form.

That is very good form.

[djewesbury]

Everyone makes mistakes sometimes, we had better be nice about something in Decanter or otherwise DecanterMag will never visit the site again.

Let me start the ball rolling; I think Decanter is less completely irritating and vacuous than most other wine magazines.

Agreed.

I have obtained permission from Decanter to publish the full article here once the current edition leaves the news stands. They have even offered to send me a PDF to make publishing easier. I think that is good form.

That's what I'd expect of such a great publication.

[LGTrotter]

That's what I'd expect of such a great publication.

As a response to Daniel's blatant fawning (rather overdone IMHO) I should like to say the following.

I have obtained permission from Decanter to publish the full article here once the current edition leaves the news stands. They have even offered to send me a PDF to make publishing easier. I think that is good form.

I hope you will proof read it more thoroughly than whoever allowed the 'de' of infamy to appear between the words Quinta and Noval.

[Alex Bridgeman]

That's what I'd expect of such a great publication.

As a response to Daniel's blatant fawning (rather overdone IMHO) I should like to say the following.

I have obtained permission from Decanter to publish the full article here once the current edition leaves the news stands. They have even offered to send me a PDF to make publishing easier. I think that is good form.

I hope you will proof read it more thoroughly than whoever allowed the 'de' of infamy to appear between the words Quinta and Noval.

Perhaps the magazine should be renamed Docanter?

[DRT]

That's what I'd expect of such a great publication.

As a response to Daniel's blatant fawning (rather overdone IMHO) I should like to say the following.

I have obtained permission from Decanter to publish the full article here once the current edition leaves the news stands. They have even offered to send me a PDF to make publishing easier. I think that is good form.

I hope you will proof read it more thoroughly than whoever allowed the 'de' of infamy to appear between the words Quinta and Noval.

The article will be published unedited by me.

[LGTrotter]

Docanter?

Liking your work.