Advice please Gentlemen

[LGTrotter]

Having read RAYC's post above it appears I owe several ports and corks (Nierpoort 77 in particular) an apology. Point taken.

However what I give with one hand I take away with another; looking recently at a pile of Dow 77 more than half showed signs of weeping at some time or another.

I had no idea about the Taylor. Must be rather irksome that one of the two most expensive wines of the vintage blow a fuse. No sign of the Fonseca leaking too much, although I do remember a couple of notes mentioning this.

With regard to the Graham; it is, as I have said before, different. I wholly reject the idea it is worse (Andy). No problems with the corks there. Or with the Warre or Croft.

Is it particularly a problem of the 77s, this cork business. Alas I have had too few 75s to compare. It seems to me that I have had more than the usual amount of trouble with corks from 1980 and 1983. What I mean is I suppose it is that era rather than that vintage.

How did we get onto the 77s?

[uncle tom]

No sign of the Fonseca leaking too much

I have 31 F77s from four cases. Three of the cases show no seepage signs at all, whilst the fourth (which came with excellent provenance) has old stains on all the selos, which I suspect may be down to a messy bottling line..

[DRT]

Is it particularly a problem of the 77s, this cork business. Alas I have had too few 75s to compare. It seems to me that I have had more than the usual amount of trouble with corks from 1980 and 1983. What I mean is I suppose it is that era rather than that vintage.

The tale I have been given from within the trade is that post-Revolution Portugal was not in a fit state to provide itself with sufficient supplies of good quality corks to cope with the size of the 1977 vintage. It was still early days for the mass bottling of VP in Portugal and it is unlikely that the shippers' quality control systems or political might were robust enough to reject the crap that was being foisted upon them by the state.

I think it is fairly well accepted that from 1971 through to 1994(?) was the dark ages for vintage port. I very much suspect that the decision to ban bulk export and therefore the need to bottle at source with limited experience and a lack of consistency of supply is at least partly responsible for what was produced during that period. 1977 just happens to be the best vintage caught in that maelstrom.

[Andy Velebil]

Is it particularly a problem of the 77s, this cork business. Alas I have had too few 75s to compare. It seems to me that I have had more than the usual amount of trouble with corks from 1980 and 1983. What I mean is I suppose it is that era rather than that vintage.

The tale I have been given from within the trade is that post-Revolution Portugal was not in a fit state to provide itself with sufficient supplies of good quality corks to cope with the size of the 1977 vintage. It was still early days for the mass bottling of VP in Portugal and it is unlikely that the shippers' quality control systems or political might were robust enough to reject the crap that was being foisted upon them by the state.

I think it is fairly well accepted that from 1971 through to 1994(?) was the dark ages for vintage port. I very much suspect that the decision to ban bulk export and therefore the need to bottle at source with limited experience and a lack of consistency of supply is at least partly responsible for what was produced during that period. 1977 just happens to be the best vintage caught in that maelstrom.

Yes, this and lots of shenanigans as a result. From around the mid 70's thru the mid 80's at least there has been widespread cork issues. TCA, bottle variation, poor corks leaking, etc. The list is rather long on bottles that have issues. Wide enough that you have to look at the cause, which all point back to poor corks. From what I've been told from a number of producers was the producers came together and put lots of pressure on the cork industry to clean up their act, which they did and continue to do.

A few with glaring issues off the top of my head and doesn't take into account lesser known producers or vintages one doesn't see or open on a regular basis.

1977 Fonseca/Taylors: Huge bottle variation
1977 Dow's/Gould Campbell: TCA
1983 Cockburns; TCA
1980 Grahams: TCA

[uncle tom]

The tale I have been given from within the trade is that post-Revolution Portugal was not in a fit state to provide itself with sufficient supplies of good quality corks

From what I've been told from a number of producers was the producers came together and put lots of pressure on the cork industry to clean up their act

These two lines get trotted out fairly regularly, but I have a problem with them..

If true, why is there not a matching period of substandard corks on Bordeaux bottlings? Is it not true that Bordeaux is bottled with Portuguese corks, or is the real story that the port producers declined to pay for the best quality corks when they repatriated the bottling of VP?

[DRT]

why is there not a matching period of substandard corks on Bordeaux bottlings? Is it not true that Bordeaux is bottled with Portuguese corks, or is the real story that the port producers declined to pay for the best quality corks when they repatriated the bottling of VP?

The cork producers will have had direct relationships directly with foreign producers who would have rejected any rubbish sent their way. The Port trade will have been given what they were given (probably with interference from government authorities) and would have been ill equipped to either spot the problem or force the cork industry to deal with it. The difference I believe would have been that in the case of Bordeaux the cork producer would have been dealing with ruthless, commercially savvy customers whilst the Port trade would have been at the mercy of internal political instability, corruption and incompetence in a post revolution period whilst trying to cope with a new method of getting their product to market.

[LGTrotter]

A few observations on the above Tom/Derek/Andy melee:

It is often the case that the bloke who isn't at the meeting is the one who gets blamed for the problems, so perhaps it is less than very surprising that when you meet the producers they blame the cork manufacturers and the pettifogging bureaucracy.

The point made about the industry being at a low ebb with low margins and little demand at this time might also suggest that the producers might have been tempted to cut corners with one of the few things they could cut back on; ie the bottles, corks and bottling.

Where the truth lies I do not pretend to know and I do not discount Derek and Andy's suggestion, they are all honourable men.

As a final thought I do not think that it is less common to find faulty wines in older vintages, however we tend to be more forgiving of these, putting it down to the passage of time rather than faults in the process of producing port. Maybe in years to come once the wheat has been sifted from the chaff we may look back with a new view of the 'Dark Ages' of port, much as history has revised it's view of the period which produced the Sutton Hoo treasure and the book of Kells. I certainly can think of a few port treasures from this period.

[Andy Velebil]

In speaking to my dry wine loving friends there is issues with similar period wines from France and the USA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LGTrotter]

In speaking to my dry wine loving friends there is issues with similar period wines from France and the USA.

I feel like I am sounding like someone who disagrees for the sake of it (Me? Never!) but the cork issue has been around for a long while before and after the seventies/eighties. The need to clean up their act was brought to a head by the screwtop, which for the first time provided a realistic alternative to cork. My impression is that the cork manufacturers prior to this were not too bothered what people thought or what the failure rate was. It seemed to be given an added impetus by the premox issue first noted in the 96 white burgundy in the early noughties. But again this does not mean that Andy does not have a point. (Sorry Andy; sometimes I do go on a bit.)

[Andy Velebil]

What info do you based that theory on?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LGTrotter]

What info do you based that theory on?

Got one of these in the shed. Quite useful really;

image.jpg (13.6 KiB) Viewed 5656 times

[LGTrotter]

Sorry Andy, couldn't help myself. Information simply from following wine journalism, hanging around merchants, chatting to people, the usual stuff. Since the mid/late nineties.

[Andy Velebil]

Sorry Andy, couldn't help myself. Information simply from following wine journalism, hanging around merchants, chatting to people, the usual stuff. Since the mid/late nineties.

Scary looking thing that is. My info came from talking and asking specific questions about this to producers in the Douro, here in the States, and employees of a cork producer, and I've also visited the cork producing plant. This is a topic that I've been informally researching for many years. Not some hearsay information mind you. There is a lot of bogus info that gets passed around.

As for the White Burg issue, most accounts and studies recently have been pointing back to changes in wine making and nothing to do directly with corks. Of course, getting the French to admit they made a mistake is, well, like asking them to stop protesting all the time. Not gonna happen.

[uncle tom]

In speaking to my dry wine loving friends there is issues with similar period wines from France and the USA.

I can't speak for US wines, as hardly any came this way at the time; but I have (and have opened) hundreds of Bordeaux bottles from the seventies and eighties, and there is no noticeable difference in cork quality to those bottled before or after.

[LGTrotter]

My info came from talking and asking specific questions about this to producers in the Douro, here in the States, and employees of a cork producer, and I've also visited the cork producing plant. This is a topic that I've been informally researching for many years. Not some hearsay information mind you. There is a lot of bogus info that gets passed around.

I really must congratulate you Andy, any casual reader of your post would be most impressed. I was particularly pleased by the line about bogus information, carrying with it the sense that you can steer us past these traps which others might lead us into. I am also relieved that you have been asking specific questions, rather than the random ones I am so prone to ask people in the wine trade, such as; whatever happened to N’sync and why do people say ‘pardon’ when they mean ‘excuse me’.

However I am at a loss as to how one might differentiate between the research you have undertaken by talking to people, reading things and thinking about them and the hearsay which afflicts the rest of us; consisting as it does of, well, how can I put this; talking to people, reading things and thinking about them. I am perfectly willing to accept that you have spent more time doing this than most people and will cherish your words.

As to the premox issue I would differentiate between the understanding you seem to have gone away with, namely that I think it is caused by corks, and what I wished to convey; which is that at the time it emerged the cork industry was implicated. This ratcheted up the pressure on the manufacturers to clean up at a time when they were feeling the heat from screwcaps, apologies if I was less than clear. Incidentally you must pass on your thoughts to the appropriate academics about the source of premox as I am sure that otherwise much valuable time will be wasted on bootless research.

[Andy Velebil]

My info came from talking and asking specific questions about this to producers in the Douro, here in the States, and employees of a cork producer, and I've also visited the cork producing plant. This is a topic that I've been informally researching for many years. Not some hearsay information mind you. There is a lot of bogus info that gets passed around.

I really must congratulate you Andy, any casual reader of your post would be most impressed. I was particularly pleased by the line about bogus information, carrying with it the sense that you can steer us past these traps which others might lead us into. I am also relieved that you have been asking specific questions, rather than the random ones I am so prone to ask people in the wine trade, such as; whatever happened to N’sync and why do people say ‘pardon’ when they mean ‘excuse me’.

However I am at a loss as to how one might differentiate between the research you have undertaken by talking to people, reading things and thinking about them and the hearsay which afflicts the rest of us; consisting as it does of, well, how can I put this; talking to people, reading things and thinking about them. I am perfectly willing to accept that you have spent more time doing this than most people and will cherish your words.

As to the premox issue I would differentiate between the understanding you seem to have gone away with, namely that I think it is caused by corks, and what I wished to convey; which is that at the time it emerged the cork industry was implicated. This ratcheted up the pressure on the manufacturers to clean up at a time when they were feeling the heat from screwcaps, apologies if I was less than clear. Incidentally you must pass on your thoughts to the appropriate academics about the source of premox as I am sure that otherwise much valuable time will be wasted on bootless research.

Are you aware that since the early to mid-80's most larger Port producers (any most larger USA producers) set up their own in-house labs to test quality of the corks they receive, Rejecting and sending back large quanties that don't stack up? Since you mentioned Ridge, they routinely test and send back thousands of corks that don't stack up. How do I know. My very good friend, which I've known since he was about 6 years old, was the Monte Bello Vineyard manager there. There is a lot of communication between cork producers and wine producers, as there is a lot of money involved. So the producers actually do talk to the cork manufactures and since the ones in Portugal at least, have a pretty idea what was going on back then. There are things I can't publicly post, as they were told in confidence. But trust me, or ignore me if you so chose, there was serious chinanigans going on back during that time period and the wine trade put significant pressure on them to clean things up. Things some UK folk here on this forum also know of. So while you feel inclined to believe some retailer and non-sense someone posted on another wine forum I have spent the time and energy actively trying to learn about the issues and what caused them from those who actually know first hand.

[LGTrotter]

Which is why I said I will cherish your words. And I shall. Do not think that I will ignore what is given to me, it broadens my experience and I am glad of it.

And I did hear about the cork testing done by wine makers.

[Andy Velebil]

As to the premox issue I would differentiate between the understanding you seem to have gone away with, namely that I think it is caused by corks, and what I wished to convey; which is that at the time it emerged the cork industry was implicated. This ratcheted up the pressure on the manufacturers to clean up at a time when they were feeling the heat from screwcaps, apologies if I was less than clear. Incidentally you must pass on your thoughts to the appropriate academics about the source of premox as I am sure that otherwise much valuable time will be wasted on bootless research.

Early information that was widely circulated, without any proof mind you other than pure speculation, was the corks were to blame. I've heard/read/been told anything from some special outside wax, to how the corks were made, to some special coating inside the glass, to the corking machine, all kinds of wild things. As more and more research has been done the corks have essentially been ruled out as the cause and now it is focusing on changes in vineyard practices and winemaking; sulfer levels, ripeness levels, etc.

The cork-as-the-cause still persists with a good many people as that is what they heard first, and heard it a lot, back when the issue started cropping up. Like a lot of issues, people tend to refuse any other explanation after the initial thing they hear regardless if that original explanation ends up being incorrect.

[LGTrotter]

Re premox; I was saying, in my usual ironic way earlier that the causes of premox are unknown. And while no cause has been attached to the corks, neither has it been attached to anything else. The jury is out on this one.

[LGTrotter]

Come on Andy, write faster!

Don't expect me to agree with it though.

[LGTrotter]

Good story about Ridge, one of the first wines that brought me on this long journey to here. Just a few Monte Bellos left, nothing from 98. Now there is a wine that speaks to me. Had a bit of a rough time with the Geyserville a few years back, but it seems to have picked up. I find it hard to deal with the prices, I started buying it when it was about £15 a bottle. But it's still good value.

Back to port and corks.

[DRT]

Are you two quite finished bickering?

I look forward to the day when you meet over a glass of Port. It will no doubt be similar to the day when Julian and I met for the first time. He realised i was a nice guy and I forgave him for all his faults

[Andy Velebil]

I'm a slow writer. And when we meet I'll try and remember to bring an old 80's Ridge along


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LGTrotter]

*Bows*

Nice doing business with you Andy. Woke me up a bit.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Are you two quite finished bickering?

I look forward to the day when you meet over a glass of Port. It will no doubt be similar to the day when Julian and I met for the first time. He realised i was a nice guy and I forgave him for all his faults

Aren't they sweet. Like an old married couple.

Now, did someone a while back ask a question along the lines of "If you were going to buy a bottle of port for Christmas, what would you chaps on the Port Forum recommend?"