Crusted port database

Post by **jdaw1** » 19:02 Mon 01 Jun 2009

Christie’s, End of Bin Sale, Thursday 21st June 1968, lot 491, wrote:Taylor Crusted Port
Bottled 1964. Black wax seals. (11)

Cockburn ‟Dry Tang” White Port (12)

Twenty-three bottles sold for 160/- per dozen.

Taylor Crusted 1964 is already on the list though.

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 20:17 Sun 05 Jul 2009

A magnum coming to auction this Saturday in Lincoln (Thos. Mawer & Son) provides more evidence to suggest that early Malvedos SQVP's were labelled as Crusted ports

- I have yet to find pre-Symington Malvedos labelled as 'vintage'

http://www.the-saleroom.com/catalogues/ ... Id=7313026

Tom

PS - I won't be chasing this bottle, should anyone want to have a punt..

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 18:57 Sun 30 Aug 2009

I was beginning to think that there had been no bottling of Crusted by Dow in 2001, as I could find no offers or TN's, and all the other recent years (up to 2002) have been well distributed and reported.

However, I found this .pdf which indicates a silver medal for the 2001 (awarded back in 2006)

http://www.dows-port.com/files/file/Dow ... t%20EN.pdf

I'll therefore add it to the list - but has anyone seen a bottle?

The article also makes reference to the 2003, but no sign of distribution so far.

Tom

Post by **jdaw1** » 19:39 Mon 21 Sep 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated June 1935:

So Taylor bottled a crusted in 1927.

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 18:28 Tue 22 Sep 2009

Thanks for that Julian - is there any indication as to what differentiates the first two?

Tom

Post by **jdaw1** » 20:21 Tue 22 Sep 2009

I know of HR and HF (consistent with WS’s coding of other ports) only what we can both see. That section of the catalogue changed infrequently. There follow some other extracts.

From the Wine Society catalogue dated October 1929:

From the Wine Society catalogue dated December 1931:

From the Wine Society catalogue dated June 1933:

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 10:52 Thu 24 Sep 2009

Julian,

Do the catalogues offer any clues as to what is meant by HE - HR - HF ?

Can't help thinking there must be a key somewhere..?

Tom

Post by **jdaw1** » 12:39 Thu 24 Sep 2009

All Wine Society bottlings had a code, presumably used for ordering and then for internal administration. With (so far) one exception each code references one port. Codes seem to have been allocated in approximately alphabetical order, so HE was probably the port they bought after HD (which happens to have been Croft 1924). The only vintage port for which the code was numeric appeared in the first preserved catalogue, so I suspect that the WS switched from numeric to alpha codes in the 1880s.

Rephrased, there is a key and you can see it.

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 12:51 Thu 24 Sep 2009

OK, so you reckon that it's no more than a serial number in letter form.

But the HE and HF Fonseca appear in the 1929 catalogue as 5 years in bottle, yet when they appear in the 1931 catalogue they are still 5 years..

..come 1933 they have caught up a little, and the HF is now listed as 8 years..

Ho hum..

.. Does the WS still have it's old bottling records, so we can see when these wines were actually bottled?

Tom

Post by **jdaw1** » 13:11 Thu 24 Sep 2009

WS has many records.

I have been tracking VP only, and it seems that one code is one port. However, a port can disappear from the catalogue (usually after a hand has drawn a line through it in the last catalogue in which it appears, suggesting ‘sold out’), and then reappear at a higher price some while later. So one code can reference a sequence of pipes or of bottlings.

I have not been tracking it closely for non-VP sorry.

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 13:22 Thu 24 Sep 2009

I have been tracking VP only, and it seems that one code is one port. However, a port can disappear from the catalogue (usually after a hand has drawn a line through it in the last catalogue in which it appears, suggesting ‘sold out’), and then reappear at a higher price some while later. So one code can reference a sequence of pipes or of bottlings

I wonder if the line drawn through might mean 'we've sold enough for now, we'll re-offer the remains at a higher price in a few years time'

Have you found any clues as to why some have numbered codes and others have letters?

Tom

Post by **jdaw1** » 13:30 Thu 24 Sep 2009

Noval 1875, for sale in the first catalogue I have (Dec 1880), had code ‟11”. Cockburn 1870 had code ‟K” in 1891 and March 1892; from June 1892 until last appearance in October 1893 it was ‟KK”. In September 1950 ‟KK” was used for Dow 1924, the only such re-use of a code yet seen (picture). All other VPs had unique two-character alpha codes (at least until the catalogues of 1950).

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 17:16 Thu 24 Sep 2009

Perhaps the codes are bin labels? References to where to find the bottles in whatever cellars the WIne Society used to store their ports.

Post by **jdaw1** » 17:31 Thu 24 Sep 2009

AHB wrote:Perhaps the codes are bin labels? References to where to find the bottles in whatever cellars the WIne Society used to store their ports.

I know of a VP of which the Wine Society bought 10 pipes: that would be a big bin. But I agree that the warehouse probably used the same codes.

Post by **jdaw1** » 12:46 Wed 14 Oct 2009

Harrods, Wines & Spirits, Summer 1964: ‟Taylor (crusted) bottled 1962, 20/-”. [My ref 01917.]

Post by **jdaw1** » 12:56 Wed 14 Oct 2009

Harrods, Wines & Spirits, Summer 1965: ‟Taylor (crusted) bottled 1963, 23/-”. [My ref 01923.]

Post by **jdaw1** » 19:59 Wed 14 Oct 2009

Harrods, Wine List Winter 1979/80 [my ref 02004], under the title ‟Crusting Port”:
• ‟Smith Woodhouse Bottled 1978 £5.00”;
• ‟Taylor Bottled 1974 £5.70”.

Post by **jdaw1** » 16:21 Mon 19 Oct 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue of June 1952:

All of Cockburn 1934 1936 1937 1943 are missing from the list: please add.

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 19:53 Mon 19 Oct 2009

Have done..

..thanks Julian

Tom

Post by **jdaw1** » 14:14 Thu 22 Oct 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated Spring 1961:

(No, I don’t know what the * is. They might mean ‘New in this catalogue’.)

Post by **jdaw1** » 14:54 Thu 22 Oct 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated Spring 1962:

Post by **jdaw1** » 15:39 Thu 22 Oct 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated Spring 1964:

I suspect that the Quinta Mileu is LBV, but thought you might wish to judge for yourself.

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 15:48 Thu 22 Oct 2009

Julian,

Definitely an LBV

Indeed, is this the earliest reference to Late Bottled Vintage in a merchant's catalogue?

- And will you edit the Wiki entry, or shall I..?

Tom

Post by **jdaw1** » 16:42 Thu 22 Oct 2009

uncle tom wrote:Indeed, is this the earliest reference to Late Bottled Vintage in a merchant's catalogue?

Depends on whether you are restricting it to things described as LBV.

From the Wine Society catalogue, November 1952:

uncle tom wrote:And will you edit the Wiki entry, or shall I..?

Please do so in accordance with the grammatical and punctuation conventions used by those aware of them.

Post by **jdaw1** » 16:53 Thu 22 Oct 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated February 1965:

Likewise, I suspect that the Roncao 1944 bottled 1948 is late-bottled, but by the standards of the day not late by much. However, the Malvedos 1959 definitely goes in the list.

(For these purposes this extract exhausts my Wine Society source.)

Next post on new page: quote appropriately.

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 16:29 Fri 23 Oct 2009

But do keep in mind that late bottled Vintage Port and "LBV" as we know it today can and is very different. Many VP's were "late bottled" in the older days. In talking with some producers it was quite common for VP shipped in casks to be bottled many years after it was produced and shipped as there was no set standard when to bottle. The actual strict bottling between second and third year is something relatively new in the scheme of Port production (post WW2 only) and is now more closely relegated since casks are no longer sent abroad for bottling. So older stuff could, and was, often bottled much later than 3 years after harvest. That doesn't make it an LBV as we know it today.

Paul Symington explains this quite clearly HERE in a thread on LBV's.

Post by **jdaw1** » 00:07 Sat 31 Oct 2009

Post by **jdaw1** » 15:53 Wed 04 Nov 2009

Fortnum & Mason, catalogue of 1961 1962, item 234: ‟Grahams old crusted, bottled 1951” at 25/- per bottle. In summer 1965 costing 26/6 per bottle.

Currently missing from list: please add.

Post by **jdaw1** » 16:30 Wed 04 Nov 2009

In Autumn 1987 Fortnum & Masons sold, under the heading ‟Crusted Port”, both ‟Churchill (UK Bottled 1984)” at £7.65 and ‟Martinez (UK Bottled 1985)” at £7.50. Both are already in the list.

I’m puzzled by the ‟UK” bottledness.

Post by **jdaw1** » 17:33 Wed 04 Nov 2009

Fortnum & Mason, catalogue 1991/2:
• Fortnum & Mason Crusted Port bottled 1986, £12.95;
• Graham’s, bottled 1985, £12.

Both missing from list.

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 00:45 Sat 21 Nov 2009

jdaw1 wrote:I’m puzzled by the ‟UK” bottledness.

From memory, I believe that vintage port ceased to be shipped in bulk at an earlier date than other types of port. I believe that until relatively recently, it was possible to buy port in bulk and bottle it locally, just not vintage port.

Post by **jdaw1** » 19:54 Sun 22 Nov 2009

Following a second visit to the Wine Society from the Wine Society catalogue dated May 1966:

Please add the Guimaraens 1958.

Post by **jdaw1** » 21:50 Sun 22 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated Spring 1969:

Post by **jdaw1** » 15:03 Mon 23 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated 1970/71:

Post by **DRT** » 15:58 Mon 23 Nov 2009

Taylor LBV 1965 - I have one of those

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 16:06 Mon 23 Nov 2009

Curiously, I have now seen references to Taylor '65 having been bottled in 1969, 1970 & 1971..

(Database now updated)

Tom

Post by **DRT** » 16:48 Mon 23 Nov 2009

As it was a "new" concept in terms of being a commercial product, perhaps they just bottled it on demand?

Post by **jdaw1** » 21:01 Mon 23 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated 1972/3:

Post by **jdaw1** » 21:06 Mon 23 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated Jan/March 1973:

Post by **jdaw1** » 21:52 Mon 23 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated October 1973 to March 1974:

Post by **jdaw1** » 22:28 Mon 23 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated October 1974-March 1975:

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 02:09 Tue 24 Nov 2009

So anyone know, or can estimate, what those prices would be the equivalent of nowdays?

Post by **DRT** » 03:15 Tue 24 Nov 2009

Andy V wrote:So anyone know, or can estimate, what those prices would be the equivalent of nowdays?

£2.50 in 1975 is equivalent to around £10 today. A bottle of Crusted port costs around £13-15 today which suggests that it is now more expensive than it was 34 years ago, but that may be explained by the relatively low quantities in which it is now produced compared to back then.

Post by **jdaw1** » 10:29 Tue 24 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated April to September ’75:

Post by **jdaw1** » 12:24 Tue 24 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated October 77/March 78:

Post by **jdaw1** » 13:11 Tue 24 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated October 78/April 79:

(Too long? Read only the second ¶, then add Fonseca Crusted of Feb 1970 to the list.)

Post by **jdaw1** » 13:27 Tue 24 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society catalogue dated May/September 1979:

Andy Velebil · Post by **Andy Velebil** » 14:58 Tue 24 Nov 2009

DRT wrote:
Andy V wrote:So anyone know, or can estimate, what those prices would be the equivalent of nowdays?
£2.50 in 1975 is equivalent to around £10 today. A bottle of Crusted port costs around £13-15 today which suggests that it is now more expensive than it was 34 years ago, but that may be explained by the relatively low quantities in which it is now produced compared to back then.

Thanks. Not a bad deal back then

Post by **jdaw1** » 21:48 Tue 24 Nov 2009

From the Wine Society Revised List dated July 1979:

uncle tom · Post by **uncle tom** » 23:37 Tue 24 Nov 2009

A bottle of Crusted port costs around £13-15 today which suggests that it is now more expensive than it was 34 years ago, but that may be explained by the relatively low quantities in which it is now produced compared to back then

I recall that soon after I first started pub-going in 1978, the price of a pint went from 33p to 34p - shock!, horror! - why?? - you couldn't get three pints for a pound anymore..

Today, in the same pub, a pint costs £2.90 - nearly nine times as much..

Inflation is a hugely manipulated statistic; and changes in duty rates make no account for the change in alcohol prices.

Anything that is actually made in the UK or europe has rocketed in cost, while cheap product from China et. al., combined with some very inventive number crunching, (notably by including cutting edge expensive gadgets in the inflation 'basket', and then dropping them when they become commonplace, and the price has fallen..); contrive to make the 'official' inflation rate much lower than it really is..

Tom