Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

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DRT
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by DRT » 23:33 Tue 13 Sep 2016

I would add Niepoort to AHB's list.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by AHB » 07:16 Wed 14 Sep 2016

I should also clarify that Warre make both styles. The one with minimal intervention is labelled as "bottle matured" and is usually bottled 4 years after the vintage and released after a further 2-6 years of bottle age.

I think I recall seeing the 2003 vintage in Waitrose recently. In 8 years time the 2011 vintage is likely to be well worth buying judging by the quality of the filtered version I had a couple of days ago.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by Monique » 11:44 Wed 14 Sep 2016

AHB wrote:I should also clarify that Warre make both styles. The one with minimal intervention is labelled as "bottle matured" and is usually bottled 4 years after the vintage and released after a further 2-6 years of bottle age.

I think I recall seeing the 2003 vintage in Waitrose recently. In 8 years time the 2011 vintage is likely to be well worth buying judging by the quality of the filtered version I had a couple of days ago.
Aha, that's why I didn't find the Warre 2011 unfiltered in the grocery. They hold them back some years!

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 15:38 Wed 14 Sep 2016

I came across a modestly priced offering of the unfortunately named Q. Revolta LBV recently - the blurb didn't say if it was filtered or not, and the image wasn't clear enough to read the small print on the label, but the bottle appeared to have a driven cork.

Have only previously come across this brand in Vinologia - no idea where the actual Quinta is..
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by DRT » 21:55 Wed 14 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:I came across a modestly priced offering of the unfortunately named Q. Revolta LBV recently - the blurb didn't say if it was filtered or not, and the image wasn't clear enough to read the small print on the label, but the bottle appeared to have a driven cork.

Have only previously come across this brand in Vinologia - no idea where the actual Quinta is..
Portugal Vineyards wrote:The Quinta da Revolta is a farm located in Campanhã, in Oporto, Portugal. The Quinta da Revolta was built between the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and owes its curious name for a possible rebellion that took place there around that time.

Like many others in the area, was the summer home of one of the great families of the Port, the Viscounts of Balsemão, owners of a magnificent palace in the city center. In 1851, the viscounts aforaram the property to his brother, José Pinto de Sousa Coutinho Target of Balsemão to later sell to the capitalist Porto José Duarte de Oliveira. In turn, in 1918, was bought by Alfredo Moreira da Silva, horticulturist, in whose family still remains.The farmhouse is on two floors, plant in "L", surrounded by boxwood gardens and the chapel to the house footprint. Access to the farmyard is done through a gate surmounted by the coat of arms of the Viscounts of Balsemão (Target, Brandão and Azevedo, with crown of viscount). The house is simple, modest, although large. In the chapel dedicated to Our Lady of Conception, the highlights are the elements of the interior tiles.
It seems that Quinta da Revolta is a brand name rather than being a vineyard in the Douro. I'm not sure how they got that one past the IVDP.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by RonnieRoots » 22:50 Wed 14 Sep 2016

DRT wrote:
uncle tom wrote:I came across a modestly priced offering of the unfortunately named Q. Revolta LBV recently - the blurb didn't say if it was filtered or not, and the image wasn't clear enough to read the small print on the label, but the bottle appeared to have a driven cork.

Have only previously come across this brand in Vinologia - no idea where the actual Quinta is..
Portugal Vineyards wrote:The Quinta da Revolta is a farm located in Campanhã, in Oporto, Portugal. The Quinta da Revolta was built between the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and owes its curious name for a possible rebellion that took place there around that time.

Like many others in the area, was the summer home of one of the great families of the Port, the Viscounts of Balsemão, owners of a magnificent palace in the city center. In 1851, the viscounts aforaram the property to his brother, José Pinto de Sousa Coutinho Target of Balsemão to later sell to the capitalist Porto José Duarte de Oliveira. In turn, in 1918, was bought by Alfredo Moreira da Silva, horticulturist, in whose family still remains.The farmhouse is on two floors, plant in "L", surrounded by boxwood gardens and the chapel to the house footprint. Access to the farmyard is done through a gate surmounted by the coat of arms of the Viscounts of Balsemão (Target, Brandão and Azevedo, with crown of viscount). The house is simple, modest, although large. In the chapel dedicated to Our Lady of Conception, the highlights are the elements of the interior tiles.
It seems that Quinta da Revolta is a brand name rather than being a vineyard in the Douro. I'm not sure how they got that one past the IVDP.
I remember tasting their entire range years ago as a possible import. We weren't very impressed at the time (that doesn't say anything about the current quality of course). The company that makes the wines is called Veredas do Douro, they're based in the Baixo Corgo. When we were sent the samples, we also received the full range of Valriz Ports, but I can't quite remember what the link was between the two...

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 07:13 Thu 15 Sep 2016

The IVDP created the 'Bottle matured' category for bottle aged LBV in 2002 (I think) but aside from Warre, who's duel offering can easily confuse, there seem to be very few takers for this category, with most unfiltered LBVs being sold straight after bottling.

I'm not sure even whether 'bottle matured' LBV has to be unfiltered, and add to that the use of T stoppers on some unfiltered LBVs and the emergence of the term 'soft filtered' on others, the whole LBV market is turning into a chaotic mess, that serves neither the producers nor the consumers well.

There needs to be clarity on the filtration front, with a clear definition as to the maximum degree to which an unfiltered port can be strained of solids, whilst retaining the descriptors 'unfiltered' or 'bottle matured' - and perhaps the use of T stoppers should be mandatory on filtered LBV and forbidden on unfiltered, to afford a further clear distinction.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 13:19 Thu 15 Sep 2016

Inspired by this thread, I have today received some Offley LBV - it's the 2010

Packed in pretty individual cardboard cartons that were probably not cheap, the bottles have driven corks.

Beyond that there is no mention of filtration on the label, but it says it may be enjoyed straight away or after 'some' years in bottle.

- This is not very informative..
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by AHB » 13:25 Thu 15 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:Inspired by this thread, I have today received some Offley LBV - it's the 2010

Packed in pretty individual cardboard cartons that were probably not cheap, the bottles have driven corks.

Beyond that there is no mention of filtration on the label, but it says it may be enjoyed straight away or after 'some' years in bottle.

- This is not very informative..
It's not, but that is down to Luis Sottomayor. He is not prepared to compromise on the standards to which he makes his LBV. He believes (and I agree with him) that LBV port is vintage port bottled later than the 3 year window and should be treated no differently than vintage port. Luis believes that any variation from this should be disclosed on the label - and since he doesn't vary from that behaviour he doesn't say anything on the label.

But Luis is one of the main reasons why LBV quality has gone up so much over the last few years The Sogrape brand LBVs are astonishing quality and value for money at the moment and are where I recommend starting a port collection to everyone and anyone - relatively cheap but with 2-3 decades of cellaring potential.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 14:11 Thu 15 Sep 2016

that LBV port is vintage port bottled later than the 3 year window and should be treated no differently than vintage port
So can I take it that this wine is as unfiltered as a vintage port?
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by DRT » 18:25 Thu 15 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:
that LBV port is vintage port bottled later than the 3 year window and should be treated no differently than vintage port
So can I take it that this wine is as unfiltered as a vintage port?
It should be, but it has also had 3 additional years dropping sediment into the lees so will not have the same amount of solid matter suspended in the liquid when bottled as VP would.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 20:15 Thu 15 Sep 2016

It should be, but it has also had 3 additional years dropping sediment into the lees so will not have the same amount of solid matter suspended in the liquid when bottled as VP would.
There are two issues here.

Removing sediment that has physically dropped during those three years is not a major issue IMO. Removing particulates that are small enough to remain in suspension however is much more worrisome - it appears to define the point at which a wine's ability to age becomes compromised.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by DRT » 22:27 Thu 15 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:
It should be, but it has also had 3 additional years dropping sediment into the lees so will not have the same amount of solid matter suspended in the liquid when bottled as VP would.
There are two issues here.

Removing sediment that has physically dropped during those three years is not a major issue IMO. Removing particulates that are small enough to remain in suspension however is much more worrisome - it appears to define the point at which a wine's ability to age becomes compromised.
Or, in other words, we are making the same point.

Properly unfilterd LBV will still have the ability to age, but will not have the aging potential that it would have had if it had been bottled as VP after two years rather than four to six years.

These are not "issues", they are merely facts :wink:
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by RonnieRoots » 00:24 Fri 16 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:The IVDP created the 'Bottle matured' category for bottle aged LBV in 2002 (I think) but aside from Warre, who's duel offering can easily confuse, there seem to be very few takers for this category, with most unfiltered LBVs being sold straight after bottling.

I'm not sure even whether 'bottle matured' LBV has to be unfiltered, and add to that the use of T stoppers on some unfiltered LBVs and the emergence of the term 'soft filtered' on others, the whole LBV market is turning into a chaotic mess, that serves neither the producers nor the consumers well.

There needs to be clarity on the filtration front, with a clear definition as to the maximum degree to which an unfiltered port can be strained of solids, whilst retaining the descriptors 'unfiltered' or 'bottle matured' - and perhaps the use of T stoppers should be mandatory on filtered LBV and forbidden on unfiltered, to afford a further clear distinction.
Smith Woodhouse also says "bottle matured" on the label. So obviously the Symingtons see a market for the product :wink:

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by RonnieRoots » 00:26 Fri 16 Sep 2016

AHB wrote:But Luis is one of the main reasons why LBV quality has gone up so much over the last few years The Sogrape brand LBVs are astonishing quality and value for money at the moment and are where I recommend starting a port collection to everyone and anyone - relatively cheap but with 2-3 decades of cellaring potential.
That is very good to know. We have Ferreira available here at a relatively good price. I'll give that a try.

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by LGTrotter » 01:53 Fri 16 Sep 2016

DRT wrote:
uncle tom wrote:
It should be, but it has also had 3 additional years dropping sediment into the lees so will not have the same amount of solid matter suspended in the liquid when bottled as VP would.
There are two issues here.

Removing sediment that has physically dropped during those three years is not a major issue IMO. Removing particulates that are small enough to remain in suspension however is much more worrisome - it appears to define the point at which a wine's ability to age becomes compromised.
Or, in other words, we are making the same point.

Properly unfilterd LBV will still have the ability to age, but will not have the aging potential that it would have had if it had been bottled as VP after two years rather than four to six years.

These are not "issues", they are merely facts :wink:
Why would exta time in the pipe compromise the wine's capacity to age? I assume that some doubt exists for Tom to italicise the word "appears". If it is a doubt it is one I would share, as I cannot see why the shedding of another year or three worth of impurities before being confined to a bottle would circumscribe the aging potential. And yet it seems to. It is all a bit of a mystery. And I have wandered from the topic.

Having read this again it seems the the idea is that filtration is the problem, which experience tells me is true.

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by DRT » 02:01 Fri 16 Sep 2016

LGTrotter wrote:
DRT wrote:
uncle tom wrote:
It should be, but it has also had 3 additional years dropping sediment into the lees so will not have the same amount of solid matter suspended in the liquid when bottled as VP would.
There are two issues here.

Removing sediment that has physically dropped during those three years is not a major issue IMO. Removing particulates that are small enough to remain in suspension however is much more worrisome - it appears to define the point at which a wine's ability to age becomes compromised.
Or, in other words, we are making the same point.

Properly unfilterd LBV will still have the ability to age, but will not have the aging potential that it would have had if it had been bottled as VP after two years rather than four to six years.

These are not "issues", they are merely facts :wink:
Why would exta time in the pipe compromise the wine's capacity to age? I assume that some doubt exists for Tom to italicise the word "appears". If it is a doubt it is one I would share, as I cannot see why the shedding of another year or three worth of impurities before being confined to a bottle would circumscribe the aging potential. And yet it seems to. It is all a bit of a mystery. And I have wandered from the topic.

Having read this again it seems the the idea is that filtration is the problem, which experience tells me is true.
I have no scientific evidence to back this up but it must at least be possible that the existence of the sediment in the same vessel as the wine has an influence on how it develops over time. VP is bottled with lots of solids suspended in the liquid that stay trapped in the same container (and occasionally mixed back into the liquid) until it is consumed. Unfiltered LBV has far less of those solids poured into the bottle because those solids are sitting in the bottom of the barrel. For me, that is a material difference that is likely to affect the aging potential of the wine.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by DRT » 02:04 Fri 16 Sep 2016

...and on top of that there is oxidation. An extra two to four years of exposure to air in the barrel ages an LBV by a decade or two compared to VP. Does that accelerated process stop or slow down when the wine is bottled?
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by LGTrotter » 02:12 Fri 16 Sep 2016

DRT wrote:I have no scientific evidence to back this up but it must at least be possible that the existence of the sediment in the same vessel as the wine has an influence on how it develops over time. VP is bottled with lots of solids suspended in the liquid that stay trapped in the same container (and occasionally mixed back into the liquid) until it is consumed. Unfiltered LBV has far less of those solids poured into the bottle because those solids are sitting in the bottom of the barrel. For me, that is a material difference that is likely to affect the aging potential of the wine.
All this rings true.

What about the three year bottlings of VP? I wonder if they last less well? Will the Fonseca 63 from Bonham's tire faster because of this? Difficult to know, particularly because of the vagaries of the bottler.

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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 11:15 Fri 16 Sep 2016

Why would exta time in the pipe compromise the wine's capacity to age?
My suspicion is that it doesn't, that a combination of wood age and bottle age tends to produce very enduring wines, such as the Niepoort Garrafeiras.

Why then are VPs often bottled early, with minimal wood exposure prior? I think the answer lies in the quest for good critical reviews.

Dirk once invited me into his blending room where he had some vintage stock samples. Two lotes had been partly kept in pipes and partly in tonels, and there was a significant difference between the two - more wood exposure at a young age clearly made for a more dour and sober wine.

Unfortunately, it follows that critics seeking out young fruit bombs to laud are likely to be less impressed by VPs that have had more wood exposure..
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by AHB » 22:39 Fri 16 Sep 2016

So coming back to the theme of the thread, this evening I opened a bottle of Warre 1986 bottle matured LBV (bottled 1990). It's gorgeous. It doesnt have the same level of refinement or complexity that a 1985 VP would have - but nor does it have the price tag.

And, in my opinion, it would age another 10 years if I allowed my remaining bottles to do so.

Top quality LBVs age and mature to produce a fabulous value-for-money mature port.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 09:34 Sun 18 Sep 2016

Another name worthy of mention is Ramos Pinto. They state very clearly that their LBVs are unfiltered and bottled in the fourth year.

One of my few encounters with an RP LBV was a '92 in April this year. My note says: 'still indecently young'

When there's definitely no filtration I have confidence in LBVs, but those producers who use driven corks yet make no statement on filtration bother me a little - it's a voyage into the unknown..

(Incidentally, if anyone is looking for good value quaffing, I still have stocks of TPS finest unfiltered reserve (FUR) which is aging beautifully, and at a mere tenner a bottle, is an absolute bargain..)
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by AHB » 20:33 Sun 18 Sep 2016

The port Tom refers to has a couple of tasting notes posted on TPF, the most recent of which is this one. While closer to a crusted than an LBV, I really ought to try it again now that it's had another three years of bottle age as it was pretty tasty in 2013 but needed some more time in the bottle.
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Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by uncle tom » 15:32 Tue 20 Sep 2016

Question:

Has Warre changed from late release bottle matured to filtered, or are they running both styles in tandem??
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Re: RE: Re: Which LBVs are worth cellaring?

Post by PhilW » 17:13 Tue 20 Sep 2016

uncle tom wrote:Has Warre changed from late release bottle matured to filtered, or are they running both styles in tandem??
The latest Warre LBV I've seen to date is 2003 (bottle matured). Your question implies you have seen a more recent (2008+)?

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