Nacional - Myth or Magic?

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Glenn E.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Glenn E. »

AHB wrote:I recently was faced with a choice, with limited funds available to me, would I like 1 bottle of Nacional 1966 or 4 bottles of Fonseca 1966.
For me that's not even a choice.

No question: 4 x F66 >>> 1 x NN66.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by g-man »

Glenn E. wrote:
AHB wrote:I recently was faced with a choice, with limited funds available to me, would I like 1 bottle of Nacional 1966 or 4 bottles of Fonseca 1966.
For me that's not even a choice.

No question: 4 x F66 >>> 1 x NN66.
What if you could find someone who was willing to pony up more then you paid for your F66 so that you could sell 3 of them for 1 NN 66?

Would you still want 4 F66 or 1 F66 and 1 NN66
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by mosesbotbol »

Roy Hersh wrote:A fun thread.

My point is that AXA has brought a total reversal of fortune to Quinta do Noval in general, and Nacional in particular. DRC is pricey too, but there is a reason ... scarcity. This is not the same as "perceived scarcity" of Chateau Latour or Haut Brion that routinely make 10,000+ cases in a fine vintage like 1982, 1989/'90, 2000 or even 2005.

Nacional is a VP that is the result of extraordinarily low yields and more so ... 200-250 cases produced for the entire world.
Roy has a good point on true scarcity. Dom and Cristal command high prices as well and they produce well over 10K cases year. I think Dom is 100K+ case (I could be way off). I venture to say that 1994 Nacional will increase to a higher percent of original price in 30 years than any other port of the same vintage.

In a lot of products, value is not linear. Once you get near the top it takes a lot of extra cash to elevate it even further. Does a 70K stereo sound 50K better than a 20K stereo (which should sound pretty heavenly)? The same can be said for Glenn's example on the Ferrari. To the people who can afford the 70K stereo or Ferrari, the answer would be "yes". Their perception is different than most of ours. We look at the price and quality, they look perceived value and have deeper pockets.
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g-man
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by g-man »

mosesbotbol wrote: Roy has a good point on true scarcity. Dom and Cristal command high prices as well and they produce well over 10K cases year. I think Dom is 100K+ case (I could be way off). I venture to say that 1994 Nacional will increase to a higher percent of original price in 30 years than any other port of the same vintage.
according to wiki, 5mm bottles of Dom P a year which comes to 420k cases. My god, I'm never buying dom p at those prices again.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by mosesbotbol »

[quote="g-man]according to wiki, 5mm bottles of Dom P a year which comes to 420k cases. My god, I'm never buying dom p at those prices again.[/quote]

I thought it was something like that, but did not want to sound foolish without knowing for sure...

How's that for perceived value?

Same can be said with Rolex if you look at the finishing and complications, yet it is still one of the most sought after timepieces.

Perceived value goes a long way.
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Frederick Blais
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Frederick Blais »

Champagne is the most lucrative wine market on the planet. There is no such thing as bulk cheap wine. They all sell for premium prices and they produce millions of bottle each year.

As Roy pointed out, Axa really raised the consistency and the price of the NN, we should be able to witness the results in a few years. Normally it will be great :D

And yes, the NN is not 10 x more please than Ferreira but as with anything, when you get to a certain level of quality, every extra inch is getting way more pricey than the previous one. They probably make more money from each bottle than any Port but considering the little amount they make, we can say that they will never get rich doing it, and it is probably why no others can afford to go on with such a project, grafted or ungrafted vines. When you walk into NN vineyard after the harvest, you can be surprised of just how much grapes were left on the vines, it is just like Yquem, only the very best berries can enter the final blend. There is a strict selection in every part of the process and life of the wine.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Glenn E. »

g-man wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:
AHB wrote:I recently was faced with a choice, with limited funds available to me, would I like 1 bottle of Nacional 1966 or 4 bottles of Fonseca 1966.
For me that's not even a choice.

No question: 4 x F66 >>> 1 x NN66.
What if you could find someone who was willing to pony up more then you paid for your F66 so that you could sell 3 of them for 1 NN 66?

Would you still want 4 F66 or 1 F66 and 1 NN66
Let's put it this way - I lost out on NN70 at $350/bottle because I just couldn't bring myself to pay that much when I could get T70 for half that price. And yes, I was fully aware at the time that $350/bottle was less than half the going rate in the US of closer to $900/bottle. I finally did convince myself to order the bottles, but due to a foulup at the store I didn't get them. (They sold the same bottles twice, and either mine was the second order or the other buyer was a walk-in and bought my bottles out from under me before they could be shipped.)

Nacional just isn't worth the price to me. I'm sure it's great and all that, but I just can't justify the price when I can get 4 bottles of something like a Taylor '70 or a Fonseca '66 instead. Even at a mere double the price of those "lesser" Ports I still have trouble rationalizing the purchase.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by SushiNorth »

g-man wrote:My god, I'm never buying dom p at those prices again.
Prosecco is the way to go; I brought a half-case to a party and everyone complimented me on bringing the best bubbly they'd had in years.
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g-man
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by g-man »

SushiNorth wrote:
g-man wrote:My god, I'm never buying dom p at those prices again.
Prosecco is the way to go; I brought a half-case to a party and everyone complimented me on bringing the best bubbly they'd had in years.
nownow, let's not step too far =) ... a fine bubbly does have its place in my cellar =)
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by A Good Nose »

Before I say another word I should first of all declare I do have a slightly vested interest, as you will understand from agoodnose.com :D

However, I rather enjoyed Derek's realistic perspective in the first of his entertaining posts on this particular thread. I think cult wines are here to stay and Nacional is certainly of that ilk. Furthermore, having had the great privilege to taste a considerable range of N.N. vintages, excepting the legendary 31' :cry: - I have found the quality to be consistent and commensurate with the wine's acclaimed status, though am fully aware of criticism relating to earlier inconsistent vintages - pre Christian Seely.

I am not an expert on great Port vintages, nor have I had the good fortune to taste the many different wines my Port Forum colleagues might have. I do know something of other classic wine regions and think any argument that states Nacional is 'overpriced' might be founded upon the shifting sands of bottle envy :lol:

Given the pitifully small production of Nacional.. and that we all agree fine Port remains a true 'bargain' in relation to the great comparable growths of Bordeaux - whose production I might add, is way beyond that of the tiny Nacional as already stated by Roy Hersh, surely we can all concur, the truly extortionate values attributed to the top Bordeaux Cru Classe's make any top Port wine look like a bargain at B&Q.

Therefore, I would like to petition my new friends on Port Forum to endorse 'elitism and exclusivity', after all, though we may not be able to afford to fill our own cellars with such fine wines...we probably all know a Derek Turnbull in our own neighbourhood... a jolly good friend whose generosity is unsurpassed and frequent dinner invitations are totally irresistable and compelling :nirvana: I for one am looking forward to sharing that particularly fine 63' Derek :lol:

Separarely and far more significantly: we should all be concerned about Glenn E.'s 'judgement of Paris'... Hilton. His proposition that she could be a "good to very good model" is deeply troubling, I think a spell in Port rehab is neccessitated - otherwise he might be on the slippery slope to a life of Blue Nun excess and coke in his Lafite :roll:
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Glenn E. »

A Good Nose wrote:Separarely and far more significantly: we should all be concerned about Glenn E.'s 'judgement of Paris'... Hilton. His proposition that she could be a "good to very good model" is deeply troubling, I think a spell in Port rehab is neccessitated - otherwise he might be on the slippery slope to a life of Blue Nun excess and coke in his Lafite :roll:
I will happily turn myself in for said rehab under the fine supervision of the Port Doctors in residence here on this forum!

However, I do think she could be in the 80-85 point range as a model if you could filter out all of the baggage that seems to come with her. Which, if I understand the 100-point system correctly, is supposed to be a good to very good number.

BTW the only "sin" I commit with Coke is that I add a shot of Green Spot Irish Whiskey. :lol:
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

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A Good Nose wrote:Therefore, I would like to petition my new friends on Port Forum to endorse 'elitism and exclusivity', after all, though we may not be able to afford to fill our own cellars with such fine wines...we probably all know a Derek Turnbull in our own neighbourhood... a jolly good friend whose generosity is unsurpassed and frequent dinner invitations are totally irresistable and compelling :nirvana: I for one am looking forward to sharing that particularly fine 63' Derek :lol:
A fine attempt, David. I will add you to the list of people who have tried to muscle in on my pride and joy :wink: :lol:

I have no idea when that bottle will be opened. All I do know is that when it is, it will be in the company a few fellow port lovers who will appreciate it for what it is :wink:
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Simon Lisle »

This is a great post Tom I'm afraid my experiance with Nacional is limited every time I think of bidding on one I look at all the bottles I could buy with the money and bid on others.Missing out probably.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by uncle tom »

While visiting the quinta recently, where we were royally treated...! the line-up of wines on offer included the Silval, Regular Noval and Nacional 2003's

There was no doubt that the Nacional was the best of the three, but by a furlong, not a mile. Similarly, the Silval was only marginally behind the regular Noval.

I already have a case of the regular '03, and in a reckless moment might splash out on a bottle or two of the Nacional, if the price is not too extreme..

The Silval is a seriously good wine that is worth looking out for. It typically sells for 50% of the price of the regular Noval, yet offers at least 90% of the quality.

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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Frederick Blais »

But at the end of the night Tom, we could clearly see the magic out of Nacional. It was so shut when we first tasted it and 5 hours later it was the most exotic and exuberant bouquet on a Port I had not have in many years for such a young wine. For me Nacional et like Romanée Conti of DRC. Never a blockbuster but always showing elegance and personality so unique compared to others.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by uncle tom »

But at the end of the night Tom, we could clearly see the magic out of Nacional.
The conviviality of the evening made every wine magical by the close..

Tom
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Roy Hersh »

Unfortunately, tasting Nacional at the source is far from the best way to appreciate the greatness. First of all, they never decant the juice in advance, or at least far enough in advance for it to show its true beauty. I agree with Fred in what he last mentions about Nacional.

Enjoying a great Nacional over a day or two (or three if one can be patient) you can really see the enormous changes and in comparison to other VPs, in some of the top vintages, as well as some of the more obscure ones ... the Nacional stands above its peers.

Is it always the greatest Port of the vintage? Heck no, and there are plenty of examples of Nacional that are modest at best. But on the occasions where it is (tops of the vintage) say ... 1970, as a great but singular example for now; Nacional can best the likes of Fonseca, Taylor, Graham, Dow etc. and by quite a margin ... considering the exemplary showing of those four from bottles of perfect provenance.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Axel P »

What a very interesting read. First of all here is the complete list of all the Nacionals ever produced (source: first hand):

1931 (it was the 1st ever made)
1934
1947
1955
1960
1962
1963
1964
1966
1967
1970
1975
1978
1980
1982
1983
1985
1987
1991
1994
1996
1997
1998
1999
2000
2001
2003

My personal oppinion to this is, that there is always the discussion about marginal cost and marginal utility, where everyone has to answer this question only to himself. Many people would think that someone is in the hyperspace when hearing that he paid 2.000 EUR for a single bottle of Novals 63 Nacional, but others would think the same thing from someone paying 75 EUR for a bottle of Noval 2000.

I think there is no point in arguing as there are enough people spending this amount of money for both of the Ports.

So let us thank Noval for producing these enormous wines, let us enjoy drinking them and let us not be distracted with the question, if it is worth the money. Because if it is not, simply do not buy it.

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uncle tom
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by uncle tom »

Axel,

Useful list, but Derek has previously indulged an NN58, missing from your list..

viewtopic.php?p=442

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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Axel P »

Hi Tom,

I never heard of this one.

I got this list from Noval themself, but I will ask. Thanks for the reminder.

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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

I can confirm that Noval shipped a 1958 Nacional - I was with Derek when he drank the bottle and I have another locked away safely for some future date.

I'm also extremely interested in Noval's source of knowledge for the list of declarations which they gave you. Considering that we can't even be certain when the Nacional plot was replanted because of the fire which destroyed the records, I am quite surprised that they are able to produce a definitive list of vintages shipped. There is even some mild controversy as to whether or not the 1931 vintage was actually the first produced from these young vines.
Last edited by Alex Bridgeman on 09:34 Tue 23 Dec 2008, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by DRT »

AHB wrote:I can confirm that Noval shipped an 1958 Nacional - I was with Derek when he drank the bottle and I have another locked away safely for some future date.
Don't you mean "we"? :wink:
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Doggett »

Having recently tasted four relatively young Noval Nacionals, and never having tasted a great Nacional vintage from the past, there is no way I could justify buying a bottle of 2011 Nacional at approx. £1500 when I could get 2 cases of Fonseca 1985 or numerous bottles of other wonderful juice for the same sum. Of course, if I was Bill Koch (before Rudy Kurniawan made him a cynic) I would love to hoover up cases of the stuff, open at least a bottle each year and have loads to drink for my 100th birthday celebrations (a save the date will be posted in the appropriate thread sometime soon). For any normal budget, it just doesn’t make sense to choose the one bottle over lots of [possibly] marginally lesser ports. Having said that I know that I will one day over reach and buy that special scarce bottle that won’t make any financial sense, but the port lover will override my rational thought process! After all, even a Nacional is perhaps reasonable in cost when compared to the price of 1st growths, DRC or many other wines.
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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Axel P »

... but still the question should not be: If a Porsche is 100% more expensive than a Mercedes, does it have to be 100% better? Can it be 100% better?

I do strongly believe in the idea of Nacional. The Port is always superior to the regular Noval and to most others as well. It is targeting the luxury segment in Port, which many others should do.

I have had the discussion with Dirk, strongly believing that he could have placed his Pisca/ Bioma there - but this might be another subject...

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Re: Nacional - Myth or Magic?

Post by Doggett »

Axel P wrote:I do strongly believe in the idea of Nacional. The Port is always superior to the regular Noval and to most others as well. It is targeting the luxury segment in Port, which many others should do.
I am in complete agreement Axel. I just wish that I had the funds to make it justifiable in my case. When trying to rationalise the value equation, I suppose I am expressing a form of jealousy... in that if I can't afford it, I need to project madness upon those lucky enough to be able to acquire them. :oops: The quality need only go up very fractionally once you get to the level of very fine ports for it to be very worth while. Once you add in the subjectivity of knowing that you are drinking something very special, thereby most likely enhancing the pleasure, cost should not be a driving factor. At that stage it should purely be about the pleasure of drinking such wonderful juice.

Also, if it weren't for the Nacional, I would be bereft of the pleasure I derive from reading the wonderful tasting notes of those that have had such wonderful ports... as well as the constant hope that I will taste it more in the future.
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