Messias and Quinta do Cachão

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JacobH
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Messias and Quinta do Cachão

Post by JacobH » 22:13 Sun 05 Apr 2009

Various posts split from, or quoted from, a tasting note 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão dated Sun 05 Apr 2009. jdaw1, 23:00 NY time on Mon 06 April 2009.

It’s odd that Messias produced a SQVP and a VP in the same year and moreso that, judging by the tasting notes, Quinta do Cachão seems to be consistently better than the straight Messias. Or is the situation more complex (e.g. like the Fonseca Guimaraens or Niepoort Secundum?).
Last edited by JacobH on 11:57 Mon 03 Nov 2014, edited 1 time in total.
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DRT
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Re: 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão

Post by DRT » 22:28 Sun 05 Apr 2009

In an email to me on 17 Feb 2009, Messias Baptista, Product Manager of Caves Messias S. A. wrote:Dear Mr. Derek Turnbull,

All our Vintage Ports are single Quinta (Quinta do Cachão) unless Messias Vintage 2003 and Messias Vintage 2005 and the years of vintage were:

1955; 1960; 1963; 1964; 1965; 1966; 1967; 1970; 1975; 1976; 1977; 1978; 1979; 1980; 1981; 1982; 1983; 1984; 1985; 1989; 1997.

My kind regards,

Messias Baptista
 
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

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JacobH
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Re: 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão

Post by JacobH » 22:53 Sun 05 Apr 2009

DRT wrote:
In an email to me on 17 Feb 2009, Messias Baptista, Product Manager of Caves Messias S. A. wrote:All our Vintage Ports are single Quinta (Quinta do Cachão) unless Messias Vintage 2003 and Messias Vintage 2005 and the years of vintage were:

1955; 1960; 1963; 1964; 1965; 1966; 1967; 1970; 1975; 1976; 1977; 1978; 1979; 1980; 1981; 1982; 1983; 1984; 1985; 1989; 1997.
Wow...the levels of knowledge stored away by members of :tpf: knows no bounds!

An interesting mixture of years to have declared. I wonder why they decided to declare every year between 1975 and 1985 and missed ’91/2 and 1994. It’s also interesting that they didn’t declare between setting up in 1926 and 1955. As seems to be usual, that list is somewhat at odds with their website which gives:

1960, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1989, 1997, 2003, 2005 
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DRT
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Re: 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão

Post by DRT » 23:07 Sun 05 Apr 2009

Jacob,

I think Messias have always been more focused on tawny rather than vintage port which probably explains the slow start in declaring vintages. The wines in the list on the website all appear to be included in the list the shipper sent to me. I have seen other examples of this recently and when I have enquired about the discrepancy (which I have not in this case) it has invariably been because what is on the website is what they still have in their cellars. Perhaps this is why some of the vintages are missing from the published list.

Derek 
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

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JacobH
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Re: 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão

Post by JacobH » 23:22 Sun 05 Apr 2009

DRT wrote:I think Messias have always been more focused on tawny rather than vintage port which probably explains the slow start in declaring vintages.
That’s exactly the explanation I would give. It also looks like Messias purchased Quinta do Cachão in 1956 which might explain why they moved to producing VP. Before they they were presumably operating as pure shippers, so they could concentrate on buying and blending tawnies from independent producers. Once they acquired a Quinta, the incentive to produce VP would be much higher as not everything could be put into casks and producing a VP is a relatively (I believe) cheap and easy thing to do.
DRT wrote:The wines in the list on the website all appear to be included in the list the shipper sent to me. I have seen other examples of this recently and when I have enquired about the discrepancy (which I have not in this case) it has invariably been because what is on the website is what they still have in their cellars. Perhaps this is why some of the vintages are missing from the published list.
Sorry, I’m not doing terribly well this weekend; although I read the first sentence about the 2003 and 2005 I managed to forget about them as soon as I started poking around the Messias website! I therefore thought they were missed off the list you were sent. I also wonder whether some of those vintages were semi-official. Particularly between ’75 and ’85 when every year was declared, I wonder if they could have been keeping them for local use or a very specific market. 
Last edited by JacobH on 12:00 Mon 03 Nov 2014, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão

Post by DRT » 23:46 Sun 05 Apr 2009

JacobH wrote: I also wonder whether some of those vintages were semi-official. Particularly between ’75 and ’85 when every year was declared, I wonder if they could have been keeping them for local use or a very specific market.
According to the AEVP all of the years were declared between 1975 and 1985 with the exception of 1981. If you go to the AEVP website using the link in the previous sentence click on the bottle in the middle of the page and it will reveal a chart of their members declared vintages from 1900 onwards.

Derek 
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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jdaw1
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Re: 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão

Post by jdaw1 » 01:09 Mon 06 Apr 2009

The website does list ‟Vintages available”. When I list the Taylor ‘Vintages available’ from my cellar, this, alas, should not be confused with a list of everything declared. Alas alas.

The little picture of the bottle (on the website and below) looks much like the picture I’ll upload when child-care permits.
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Re: 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão

Post by JacobH » 12:05 Mon 06 Apr 2009

DRT wrote: According to the AEVP all of the years were declared between 1975 and 1985 with the exception of 1981.
That's interesting (incidentally, that site only works properly in IE; for Firefox or Chrome turn Javascript off). Can we take that to mean the 1981 was entirely unofficial? I'm still curious as to why they went from making one a year (including a very rare 1976) to stopping making VP altogether between 1985 and 1997 with the exception of 1989.
DRT wrote:Should this discussion be split from the TN?
I don't mind; it's Julian's tasting note that we have hijacked. :-)
jdaw1 wrote:The website does list ‟Vintages available”. When I list the Taylor ‘Vintages available’ from my cellar, this, alas, should not be confused with a list of everything declared. Alas alas.
Indeed, and further apologies for a general inability to read anything. Though if they do have all of those available to purchase, it would provide Derek with another supply of 1965!
jdaw1 wrote:Not only have they used all-capitals for a sentence with accents, the typefaces chosen don’t even treat consistently accented capitals.
I'd be more concerned about the fact that they've used about four or five different typefaces (in completely different styles) making it look like a bit of a mess. I think that the shrunken letters for the accents can work, but only if there are enough of them to make it look quirky rather than wrong!
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Re: 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão

Post by DRT » 13:51 Mon 06 Apr 2009

In an email today in response to an email from me pointing out that the AEVP does not list the 1981, Messias Baptista wrote:Dear Mr. Derek Turnbull,

You're right! It was my mistake, please accept my apologies. If i can help you with anything else, please just say so.

My kind regards,

Messias Baptista
 
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

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JacobH
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Re: 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão

Post by JacobH » 19:15 Mon 06 Apr 2009

DRT wrote:
In an email today in response to an email from me pointing out that the AEVP does not list the 1981, Messias Baptista wrote:Dear Mr. Derek Turnbull,

You're right! It was my mistake, please accept my apologies. If i can help you with anything else, please just say so.

My kind regards,

Messias Baptista
:-)

Not sure what sort of precedence that sets for of information from shippers! 
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Re: Messias and Quinta do Cachão

Post by jdaw1 » 03:53 Tue 07 Apr 2009

[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=24159#p24159]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:Image
Not only have they used all-capitals for a sentence with accents, the typefaces chosen don’t even treat consistently accented capitals.


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Re: Messias and Quinta do Cachão

Post by jdaw1 » 04:01 Tue 07 Apr 2009

The preceding posts split from, or quoted from, a tasting note 1970 Messias Quinta do Cachão dated Sun 05 Apr 2009. jdaw1, 23:00 NY time on Mon 06 April 2009.

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JacobH
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Re: Messias and Quinta do Cachão

Post by JacobH » 12:03 Mon 03 Nov 2014

This thread appears relatively highly on Google when searching for Quinta do Cachão (there appears to be otherwise very limited information). I was wondering if some kind soul might therefore be willing to restore the correct accents to DRT’s post?

Of course, I should note that Messias now seems to be using Quinta do Cachão to (also?) make a table wine, which is excellent.
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