Quinta´s styles

[Glenn E.]

In which case I'd attribute the tannins in levels of perceived sweetness.

I'm more inclined to blame it on acidity rather than tannins.

If it were tannins, then we'd see lots of "this Port tastes sweeter than it used to" notes. Tannins slowly drop out of a wine as it ages, so if tannins are what alters one's perception of sweetness then one would expect to see that perception change over time.

Acidity levels in a wine don't change as the wine ages. As near as I can tell in my all-too-brief experience, neither does perceived sweetness.

so what was the last wine you had on release and recently that you can say "this port doesn't taste sweeter than it used to be"

since i started late, 2000 Fonseca was it and i had similar notes on both tannins and sweetness so far.

Not on release, but not too long after: Smith Woodhouse 2003. The tannins have mellowed, but to me the sweetness level is the same.

I did say "all-too-brief" experience, though. But even without experience of my own, I don't recall ever seeing a TN that says something along the lines of "this Port tastes sweeter than it used to." I don't need personal experience with the subject to see the lack of evidence. Then again, maybe it's something that people just don't think about when writing a TN.

[g-man]

In which case I'd attribute the tannins in levels of perceived sweetness.

I'm more inclined to blame it on acidity rather than tannins.

If it were tannins, then we'd see lots of "this Port tastes sweeter than it used to" notes. Tannins slowly drop out of a wine as it ages, so if tannins are what alters one's perception of sweetness then one would expect to see that perception change over time.

Acidity levels in a wine don't change as the wine ages. As near as I can tell in my all-too-brief experience, neither does perceived sweetness.

so what was the last wine you had on release and recently that you can say "this port doesn't taste sweeter than it used to be"

since i started late, 2000 Fonseca was it and i had similar notes on both tannins and sweetness so far.

Not on release, but not too long after: Smith Woodhouse 2003. The tannins have mellowed, but to me the sweetness level is the same.

I did say "all-too-brief" experience, though. But even without experience of my own, I don't recall ever seeing a TN that says something along the lines of "this Port tastes sweeter than it used to." I don't need personal experience with the subject to see the lack of evidence. Then again, maybe it's something that people just don't think about when writing a TN.

I shlal dig out this post in 15 years time at our annual ACPT tasting!

[SCP]

Hmmm, after a few good initial suggestions within reasonable parameters, I must admit my error. The correct way to garner knowledge of a house style is to try a range of vintages from that house from release all, then subsequently every other year, with scrupulous objective tasting notes... better get tasting!

[g-man]

Pretty interesting that our perceived conceptions about various house styles

http://www.thevintageportsite.com/ask_browse.php

I asked
"We have a friendly discussion amongst fellow port lovers and are wondering what are the residual sugars of the SFE line up for 2007 Vintage Ports. Would it be possible to divulge that information?"

"A:

Hi Jeff, The exact laboratory analysis of our wines is proprietary information which is shared only with the IVDP, so we cannot quote the residual sugar numbers for you. What we can do, however, is direct you to the Baumé readings which in recent years have generally been published as part of the release notes for our top brands. On that basis, the numbers for the 2007 Vintage Ports are as follows:

Dow's Baumé 3.4
Graham's Baumé 4.1
Quinta do Vesuvio Baumé 3.8
Warre's Baumé 3.8

The Baumé scale is a way of measuring the density or specific gravity of grape must as compared to a standard of distilled water being equal to zero, and as the must "weight" is driven by the amount of dissolved sugars (which constitute typically 90% of dissolved solids), this reading will give you an indication of relative sweetness.

These numbers bear out the stylistic differences between our wines, namely that Graham's is typically the richest and sweetest of our Port brands, and Dow's the driest, with Warre's and Vesuvio falling between at the sweeter end of the spectrum."


And on our discussion of perceived sweetness

"Bear in mind that your perception of the sweetness or dryness of a wine will be influenced by the balance of sugars versus tannins versus acidity. You can easily experience a wine as sweeter when technically, in the laboratory, it may not be, because perhaps it is less tannic or less acidic than another wine, so the sweetness makes the overwhelming impression. There are two useful discussions of this in Wikipedia articles on Ripeness in Viticulture (scroll down to the section "Evaluating Ripeness") and Sweetness of Wine. Alternatively, consult any winemaking reference or textbook."

[Glenn E.]

"Bear in mind that your perception of the sweetness or dryness of a wine will be influenced by the balance of sugars versus tannins versus acidity."

So it's both!

[Cynthia J]

I hadn't ever thought about that before... I suppose that would make sense but I'd always thought (for no apparent good reason) that the sensation of dryness had little to do with how much sugar was in the wine and more to do with flavours of the grapes. Does terroir really have nothing to do with it? Would a Malvedos taste like a Bomfin if they were fortified in the same way?

No. But the sweetness or dryness of a wine is a function of the extent to which it has been fermented, and therefore how much residual sugar remains.

Catching up with y'all... You are both correct here - sweetness and flavour start with the grapes but also get managed a bit in the fermentation - I remember Henry Shotton explaining to me that we do ferment Dow's wines to a different baumé level before fortification than Graham's or other brands. On the other hand, I do believe that terroir is inescapable.

I don't think - but you have all tasted far more widely than me - that I have ever experienced the sort of pepperiness in a Graham's that I have nearly always spotted in a Dow's. And again, the business mentioned earlier about balance with tannins and acidity highlighting or perhaps masking perceptions of sweetness.

Aside to Derek - how many posts do I have to make to escape being in the Fonseca Bin? This is embarrassing!

[JacobH]

Aside to Derek - how many posts do I have to make to escape being in the Fonseca Bin? This is embarrassing!

Officially you might get a Symington wine after another 20-or-so posts. But, there is a standing offer to any member of that they can be promoted to any Port they wish by sending a sample case of the desired wines to the admins

[DRT]

Aside to Derek - how many posts do I have to make to escape being in the Fonseca Bin? This is embarrassing!

Officially you might get a Symington wine after another 20-or-so posts. But, there is a standing offer to any member of that they can be promoted to any Port they wish by sending a sample case of the desired wines to the admins

That offer still stands

You will be out of the Bin when you reach 75 posts.

[griff]

Aside to Derek - how many posts do I have to make to escape being in the Fonseca Bin? This is embarrassing!

Officially you might get a Symington wine after another 20-or-so posts. But, there is a standing offer to any member of that they can be promoted to any Port they wish by sending a sample case of the desired wines to the admins

That offer still stands

You will be out of the Bin when you reach 75 posts.

I must try harder as well!