Port in a barrel

[Glenn E.]

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate is a bleach and one that I use to sterilize my brewing gear. There's not even a chlorine compound available that would form TCA?

Most people mean sodium hypochlorite when they say bleach. And while sodium hypochlorite is just one of many kinds of bleach, it is by far the most commonly used.

[g-man]

Most people don't brew beer

and it's really dangerous to be drinking that stuff.

[Andy Velebil]

what is your term of lees? my definition is dead yeast like when i brew my beer. commercial port will have no lees at all when bottled that when i transfer them to an empty barrel there should be no lees at all.

2,4,6-trichloroanisole is caused by fungi. Why would bleach cause TCA?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_percarbonate is a bleach and one that I use to sterilize my brewing gear. There's not even a chlorine compound available that would form TCA?
I would NEVER use a chlorine based compound in anything that I would consume!

Sodium percarbonate has a benefit in that in water it breaks down to soda ash and water and oxygen.

Comparing beer brewing to making wine is like comparing apples to oranges in most aspects.

As for lees, in wine making it refers to anything (yeast cells, other particles, etc) that precipitates out and deposits onto the bottom of the barrel or tank.

Once the brandy is added to Port during fermentation it kills off the yeast. That yeast, and since it's unfiltered other particles as well, will eventually precipitate out and float to the bottom of the barrel. Think of a bottle of VP and all that sediment in it. If that was in a barrel (or tank) it would be considered lees not sediment. Now considering some Port isn't filtered it will continue to drop "lees." Those lees build up and because of a number of factors not found when sealed in a small glass bottle, can essentially turn "rancid" and impart off flavors to the Port. Racking is a basic principal of wine making taught from the outset.

As for using bleach, google cleaning a winery with bleach and see what comes up.

[g-man]

Andy is this from hear say or do you have a source for this information?

And how is beer making and wine making different?

you take a sugared solution, add yeast, ferment then drink.

I know for a fact that many burgundy and champagne producers will bottle on lees. They almost all refer to them as yeast.

Also not many people do any direct or secondary fermentation directly in a storage barrel. They typically have a separate fermentation tank or a barrel dedicated for fermentation. If you're doing it at home, you'd most likely have a carboy or in my case, a bunch of 4 gallon sized glass jars to which I transfer the final product (racking) into the barrel. The storage barrel is sanitized and the final product is devoid of any sort of yeast/live culture. The only sediment I would expect then in my barrel is the natural sediment that comes with age when port ages.

http://winemakermag.com/stories/article ... -equipment

was #2 on google when searching cleaning a winery with bleach

and basically every link from the google search basically says never use household bleach or sodium hypochlorite.

To which I offered that sodium percarbonate is a perfectly acceptable bleach to use and one I do use.

[Andy Velebil]

Andy is this from hear say or do you have a source for this information?

And how is beer making and wine making different?

you take a sugared solution, add yeast, ferment then drink.

I know for a fact that many burgundy and champagne producers will bottle on lees. They almost all refer to them as yeast.

Also not many people do any direct or secondary fermentation directly in a storage barrel. They typically have a separate fermentation tank or a barrel dedicated for fermentation. If you're doing it at home, you'd most likely have a carboy or in my case, a bunch of 4 gallon sized glass jars to which I transfer the final product (racking) into the barrel. The storage barrel is sanitized and the final product is devoid of any sort of yeast/live culture. The only sediment I would expect then in my barrel is the natural sediment that comes with age when port ages.

http://winemakermag.com/stories/article ... -equipment

was #2 on google when searching cleaning a winery with bleach

and basically every link from the google search basically says never use household bleach or sodium hypochlorite.

To which I offered that sodium percarbonate is a perfectly acceptable bleach to use and one I do use.

I first started working/helping out on a winery when I was 15. So I have some first hand knowledge of what goes on inside a winery. I've also had very detailed discussions with Port producers about this exact topic (lees in Port barrel) as it's been of interest to me for some time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lees_%28fermentation%29 I think this sums up lees the best.

Again, as I've mentioned before I'm using the term generally. Like anything there are exceptions to everything in wine making. But keep in mind we're not talking about a bottled product. We are talking about leaving a wine, in this case Port, in a barrel where a build up of lees will eventually start causing an issue if the barrel is not cleaned from time to time.

You're trying to compare beer sitting in a vat for a short amount of time to a fortified wine sitting in a wood barrel for extended time. Let me try asking this another way, would you brew a batch of beer in a tank, drain it off, then stick more freshly brewed beer into the same container without first cleaning out the container from the previous contents? No, you would not. You would clean it out first so as not to contaminate the second batch.

I've never heard of a wine maker using sodium percarbonate on a wood barrel, stainless steel equipment yes. Not that someone may use it, but I don't recall running across one that does.

[g-man]

ah okay that makes more sense.

but OP said "The barrel is only 6 liter, and I know that the maturing will be fast, but witch type of port would be the best to put in the barrel, for ageing.
Colheita, LBV or Vintage ???"

i'm assuming he's using a finished product and sounds like where we deviate on understanding

I personally brew cask ale.

I acutally will maintain secondary fermentation within the storage vessel (much like the english cask ales) so my beer acutally does come out cloudy.

I take primary fermentation with the fruits and grains, I'll rack it into the storage barrel then add sugar and maltose dextrin to build alcohol and body. The secondary also adds carbonation to my beer to which when I want to impart an oak finish, I can store in barrel and cork it. The lees in this case will certainly gather on the bottom and attributes to a fully body and a "bready" flavor which works well with spices and fruit i've used.

The barrel literally sits there until i finish drinking the beer. in which case then i'll clean it out and brew another batch. So my typical times are 6 months of barrel age, and drinking over 6-9 months typically.

Sodium percarbonate acutally is pretty pricey for large scales, but my meeting wine makers from napa have told me they don't use chlorine and haven't in a while. Some will use acetic acid and hot water to wash out the barrels. Some use hydrogen peroxide, which sodium percarbonate breaks down to. For steel tanks sodium percarbonate i believe is the defacto choice though as chlorine would chew through the steel.

On a small scale though it's feasible to use sodium percabonate because you dont have to dick around with figuring out how much to dilute your hydrogen peroxide.

Andy is this from hear say or do you have a source for this information?

And how is beer making and wine making different?

you take a sugared solution, add yeast, ferment then drink.

I know for a fact that many burgundy and champagne producers will bottle on lees. They almost all refer to them as yeast.

Also not many people do any direct or secondary fermentation directly in a storage barrel. They typically have a separate fermentation tank or a barrel dedicated for fermentation. If you're doing it at home, you'd most likely have a carboy or in my case, a bunch of 4 gallon sized glass jars to which I transfer the final product (racking) into the barrel. The storage barrel is sanitized and the final product is devoid of any sort of yeast/live culture. The only sediment I would expect then in my barrel is the natural sediment that comes with age when port ages.

http://winemakermag.com/stories/article ... -equipment

was #2 on google when searching cleaning a winery with bleach

and basically every link from the google search basically says never use household bleach or sodium hypochlorite.

To which I offered that sodium percarbonate is a perfectly acceptable bleach to use and one I do use.

I first started working/helping out on a winery when I was 15. So I have some first hand knowledge of what goes on inside a winery. I've also had very detailed discussions with Port producers about this exact topic (lees in Port barrel) as it's been of interest to me for some time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lees_%28fermentation%29 I think this sums up lees the best.

Again, as I've mentioned before I'm using the term generally. Like anything there are exceptions to everything in wine making. But keep in mind we're not talking about a bottled product. We are talking about leaving a wine, in this case Port, in a barrel where a build up of lees will eventually start causing an issue if the barrel is not cleaned from time to time.

You're trying to compare beer sitting in a vat for a short amount of time to a fortified wine sitting in a wood barrel for extended time. Let me try asking this another way, would you brew a batch of beer in a tank, drain it off, then stick more freshly brewed beer into the same container without first cleaning out the container from the previous contents? No, you would not. You would clean it out first so as not to contaminate the second batch.

I've never heard of a wine maker using sodium percarbonate on a wood barrel, stainless steel equipment yes. Not that someone may use it, but I don't recall running across one that does.