Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Anything to do with Port.
LGTrotter
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

Daniel I may have misunderstood but doesn't this;
djewesbury wrote:I'm breaking some rules here, but...
A member of the IVDP, on another Port Forum, wrote:I’ve heard Charles Symington saying this is the best Vintage ever: good year for the vineyard vegetative cycle, better knowledge of the viticulturist, better knowledge of the winemakers, better techniques and equipment.
Dirk Niepoort has compared 2011 to 2 great Vintages from the last century. I’m sorry I don’t remember which ones (I think it was 1963 and 1927 or 1945).
So I think it’s a great Vintage!
rather contradict this;
djewesbury wrote:
DRT wrote:I think we need to separate out the direct marketing from shippers from the sound-bite stuff used by the merchants in order to understand where each vintage is being positioned.
A very good point. Thank goodness you're back from your health farm weekend.
Put my mind at rest. I am certainly not opposed a degree of inconsistency but I was just wondering...
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DRT
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by DRT »

In Daniel's defence I think 2011 is a bad example to choose for this argument. Everyone I have spoken to or read commentary from agrees that it is up there with the best. There is no descenting voice that I have heard. The comparisons with great vintages are therefore understandable. Similar comments from shippers about 2007 or 2009 would be less understandable, but I doubt they exist.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

Let me at him! I would also add;
LGTrotter wrote:2009; A must buy vintage for port lovers (including a quote from David Guimaraens 'We haven't seen colour intensity and tannic grip like this in over 20 years. The quality of the fruit is impressive and the wines have excellent acidity').
I realise this is not hyperbole but it is a start. I am undecided on this issue but I do not have access to the port trade.
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DRT
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by DRT »

OK - so Port producers speak well of the product they are selling. Who would have thought!

But Mr G did not say "2009 is the best vintage in history" or "2009 is just like the 1963" or anything similar. He picked one quality of the wine, commented upon it, and indirectly compared that quality with 1991, 1994, 1997, 2000, 2003 and 2007 Fonseca and Taylor. That is not hyperbole.
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

All true.
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uncle tom
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by uncle tom »

Sotheby's says that the 2011s are "thrilling" and (somewhat more prosaically) "universally declared great". Link will follow.
Some years ago a local newspaper reporter (female....) frequently wrote that people were 'thrilled' by this or that, even when the person concerned was a 20 stone thug...
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by djewesbury »

Owen! There is clearly no contradiction in the posts of mine that you quote. I put the information I find to the group. I do not pass judgement on it. I see a shipper say this. I see a merchant say that. I bring it to you, like a gift. Make of it what you will.
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LGTrotter
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

Glad to see you working so late at the office Daniel.

I never had you down as a mere cypher who humbly passes things on, but I see what you are getting at. Perhaps I was tempting you, putting a crumb of cheese before a mousehole as it were, to come off the fence and pronounce.
:tpf: awaits.
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by Roy Hersh »

Thank you Owen and Daniel. Sorry for rankling feathers above. Keeping it light now, no reason to point fingers at some of the hyperbole aimed at 2011, inaccurately or not. Agreed that discussions by those who do not get to taste cask samples are still valid. My intent above was not mean spirited, but I understand how it could be taken that way. Truth be told, this was just a thorn in my side left from the early daze of FTLOP, when such frequent commentary by those very new to Port (at the time) about upcoming Vintage Port releases was filled with inaccurate assessments by those basing their opinions on everything from storms and weather reports to growing conditions from other vintages and even other wine growing regions in the EU. Again, my apology.

Moving on, DRT wrote:
All that said, when the wine merchants and distributors get their opportunity to construct their marketing material the need to sell will no doubt overtake their thoughts of protecting their suppliers' long-term reputations. I think we need to separate out the direct marketing from shippers from the sound-bite stuff used by the merchants in order to understand where each vintage is being positioned.
100% agree with this assessment. Too often, the hype comes from the retailers, agents and distributors as Derek aptly stated. Why? Because they can and do get away with it. They shove the highest rating on a particular VP in front of consumers, even if way out of line with peers, often using names like Robert Parker, (who has not officially rated Vintage Ports in TWA since 2000) and others with name recognition who did not spend more than a sip or three in front of an early cask sample at a trade tasting. Having tasted cask samples since the pair of early 1990's split-declaration vintages, with a very different methodology than most critics and closely scrutinizing the media reaction to every declaration since; I can honestly say that the Port producers, (with one or two examples to the contrary) go out of their way to portray their next VP release in rather conservative terms. There are exceptions to every generalization, but having paid strict attention to this dynamic, I believe that comparisons to "like vintages" aside ... it is not the Port shippers that ratchet up the hype ... even in particularly outstanding years like 1994, 2003, 2011. YMMV on the latter phrase.
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

My feathers at least were entirely unruffled. Indeed I find a joy in the meaty exchange of views which may not have conveyed itself. I did put on the robe of huffiness mainly for comic effect.I apologise if you missed this and have had sleepless nights. I did also take secret delight in gently twitting such a philosopher prince of the port world. No offence taken or intended.

I suspect that some of the winemaker's quotes are out of context, rather like the quotes in film posters and the blurb on books. Do personal friendships affect the criticisms people feel able to level at winemakers? OK that's probably an unfair question.
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

And what on earth is YMMV?

Just googled it.
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by Roy Hersh »

Comic relief, eh? Well it washed right over me. Like during my recent weekend celebrating Alex's birthday, I sat in the same room for two days with the majority made up of friends from England; often scratching my head and wondering why I'd possibly have a greater understanding of the discussions ... had they been in Portuguese. :lol:
Do personal friendships affect the criticisms people feel able to level at winemakers? OK that's probably an unfair question.
For ultra-polite and politically correct Brits, very likely that is the case. OTOH, I make no such claim. I am one of those gruff, speak-one's-mind Americans, direct if not too much so, as most native NY'ers remain for life.

As happened earlier in the thread above, it can get one in trouble with those who may be sensitive to such proclivities. Nonetheless, I believe that it is my personal duty to be politely blunt when in the company of the Port trade. Anyone who has ever joined me for one of our tours in Portugal, knows that I pull no punches. I am often the first to point out to winemakers when I note their wine is corked. That is a mild example though. Trust me, if I do not like a wine during a visit, I am polite about it, but certainly do not hold back that sentiment from friends in the trade or those I am not as close to. Others here likely have stories they can share on this topic. Giving less flattering low scores in front of my group with the winemaker/proprietor sitting at the table may be uncomfortable for some (a Bulas table wine comes to mind from earlier last month, on tour) but they can take this in the spirit in which it is leveled ... to help them see a differing pov of their wine, always mentioning a positive characteristic as well as what I found lacking. A personal friendship shall have no bearing on the assessment of anyone's wine, at least from where I sit. Dirk Niepoort is a great example of one individual who has heard my not so favorable commentary of wine/Port he had on the table. He actually appreciates the candor, whether he agrees with me or not ... because he has so many other people/critics/friends blowing smoke his way and never willing to critique openly and fairly.

The risk? Not being invited back if skin is thin. Yes, it happens and I will withhold the name of one specific producer who will likely not have me visit his property again. But praise is also heeped on friends and those who are no more than acquaintences, (in Gaia/Douro and other wine regions too) if the wine/Port quality warrants that sort of commentary, great. If otherwise, duly noted as well. Others here at TPF likely can share some very funny (now) examples from past visits to Portugal with me, where they've sat in horror or amusement and watched this dynamic play out. Cheers!

For the record, the same is true when I do vintage assessments. Watch for my 2011 report at the end of November and you will see that friends or otherwise ... there is zero room for any score creep ... where exactly what I determine blind about the specific VP is qualified numerically. Take no prisoners, try to find something nice to say even about the Ports that in 2011 are an epic fail, fortunately few.
LGTrotter
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

Thank you for responding in such a fulsome way, I am enormously bucked by it. Perhaps I should use emoticons to highlight my humour. But I am one of the 'show don't tell' school of writers, so there is only my prose to blame if I have failed to touch your funny bone.

As to the outlook for 2011 I would agree with one of the previous posts that fifty years and personal opinion alone will tell. That will not prevent me from devouring your report with interest and respect then putting the findings to the test over as many years as I may be spared for.
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by djewesbury »

As Owen has said, we are indeed very touched that you have replied in such detail and at such length, Roy. Your opinions and also your insights are really much appreciated. With regards to Owen's prose, I would say that your failure to catch its nuances (humour, you say, Owen?) is not necessarily purely because he is a Brit; most of the time we have no idea what he is on about either. But I like his well-judged pins, aimed at the cushioned bum of convention. And I think I am detecting a rapport developing between the two of you. Excellent.
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g-man
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by g-man »

djewesbury wrote:catch its nuances (humour, you say, Owen?) is not necessarily purely because he is a Brit;
"humour"?, you say? no, it means he's an old brit ;-)

lol!
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by g-man »

btw roy,
inaccurate assessments by those basing their opinions on everything from storms and weather reports to growing conditions from other vintages
why do you think vintage / weather reports are irrelevant to determining the quality of the vintage?

Are you implying that the winemakers are so good at manipulating the grapes nowadays the weather/growing season no longer matters?
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LGTrotter
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

Old? In the prime of life you mean surely? It is true that I came within touching distance of buying a tweed suit the other day (3 piece) but that was only for comforts sake.

Thank you Daniel for explaining me (much as one might explain away an inebriated uncle at a wedding), I am tempted to ask you to identify these cushioned bums, not Roy's I'm sure for he looks decidedly pert in the pictures I have seen. Clever lighting and make up perhaps.

Revenons a ces moutons as they would say in a land that does not understand either of ours; are there any conclusions we have reached? That merchants are more given to over selling than shippers, that 2011 is in all probability an excellent year. For if it looks like duck and walks like duck it's usually a duck.
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by jdaw1 »

LGTrotter wrote:That merchants are more given to over selling than shippers, that 2011 is in all probability an excellent year.
+1 (except that I might have used a semi-colon instead of the comma).
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g-man
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by g-man »

That merchants are more given to over selling than shippers, that 2011 is in all probability an excellent year.
Two ways to look at it

I look in the warehouse and I see 45k$ worth of 2011 vintage ports.

Now that can be viewed in two lights.

1. My company is sitting on 45k$ worth of 2011 Vintage ports.
2. I have 45k$ worth of 2011 Vintage ports.

alas, the tough question to be asked is, do I wish to make money on port or am I here merely to enjoy it.
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LGTrotter
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

A list should have had a semicolon, I also thought that the end of the sentence should have a question mark. I know how you like to have these opportunities Julian. There will be rich pickings.
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by djewesbury »

LGTrotter wrote:A list should have had a semicolon, I also thought that the end of the sentence should have a question mark. I know how you like to have these opportunities Julian. There will be rich pickings.
Wow! Next thing you'll be quoting g-man's post in the Apostrophe Crimes section, and will be a fully-fledged pedant (apology for cliché).
Last edited by djewesbury on 16:16 Sat 02 Nov 2013, edited 1 time in total.
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LGTrotter
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

A sprat to catch a mackerel.

Now stop it Daniel, we are here to talk port. So in your basket, there's a good boy, in your basket.
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by djewesbury »

:990000: :CC3300: :CC0000: :660033: :993333: :990033: :663300: :660000: :tpf: :lol:
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LGTrotter
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by LGTrotter »

g-man wrote:
That merchants are more given to over selling than shippers, that 2011 is in all probability an excellent year.
Two ways to look at it

I look in the warehouse and I see 45k$ worth of 2011 vintage ports.

Now that can be viewed in two lights.

1. My company is sitting on 45k$ worth of 2011 Vintage ports.
2. I have 45k$ worth of 2011 Vintage ports.

alas, the tough question to be asked is, do I wish to make money on port or am I here merely to enjoy it.
Do you differentiate between the merchants and the shippers in your thought experiment?
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g-man
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Re: Port and Marketing: "Best Vintage ever"

Post by g-man »

LGTrotter wrote:
g-man wrote:
That merchants are more given to over selling than shippers, that 2011 is in all probability an excellent year.
Two ways to look at it

I look in the warehouse and I see 45k$ worth of 2011 vintage ports.

Now that can be viewed in two lights.

1. My company is sitting on 45k$ worth of 2011 Vintage ports.
2. I have 45k$ worth of 2011 Vintage ports.

alas, the tough question to be asked is, do I wish to make money on port or am I here merely to enjoy it.
Do you differentiate between the merchants and the shippers in your thought experiment?

My company would be on the merchant side.

I distribute Quevedo here in NY.
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