Why do wines shut down

[g-man]

I was trawling through past topics and we have touched upon but never really discussed the topic with great breadth or depth.

Having had some 2011 Quevedos from half bottles, and directly comparing them to the 750s lead me to this particular question.

What are the potential causes for a wine to shut down?

It was particularly interesting to find the 375 of the 2011 Quevedo a bit more greenish/muted compared to the very lush 750 that was opened right next to it on two separate occasions.

It was also just as surprising to find a half bottle of a young port shut down already.

I wonder if there's a scientific way to study this?

A couple of questions I've been wondering.

-is it the sulfur in the wine that causes the wine to shut down?
-is it the spirits separating a little from the rest of the liquids that causes the muting of fruit?
-why would container size affect the shut down time?
-how long would it take for a wine to come back from being shut down?

What you guys think?

[jdaw1]

An excellent question, to which I do not have an answer.

[DRT]

I think I recall David Guimaraens telling the audience at the BFT that the biggest contributing factor to this was the integration of the spirit. He also said that with the recent significant improvement in the quality of spirit used to make port that the closing down phenomenon would become a thing of the past.

Or something along those lines.

[LGTrotter]

I don’t know the answer to your excellent question, but like you I have wondered about this.
I have noticed that it seems to come and go. Wines seem to shut down for a few years, then open up, then shut down. Even quite mature wines that I have thought are on the way out and I have then returned to the rest of the stash and they seem to have blossomed again. This coming and going makes it harder to think of a scientific explanation. One of the difficulties is bottle variation which may account for some of these experiences, but I think not all.
As to Derek’s suggestion that it is to do with the integration of the spirit; I think this makes sense for the initial shutdown but possibly not for the ones that occur in later maturity.
Is there more than one type of shutdown?

[DRT]

As to Derek’s suggestion

I don't claim it as my own, I am simply paraphrasing what I think I heard.

[LGTrotter]

Point taken, I did this for the sake of brevity as my post started to run on. I wanted to quote ‘Brideshead Revisited’ as I was reminded of it. The point where cousin Jasper comes to tell Charles off for his debauchery at Oxford and Charles mentally replies; ‘I could match my cousin Jasper’s game-cock maturity with a sturdier fowl. I could tell him that all the wickedness of that time was like the spirit they mix with the pure grape of the Douro, heady stuff full of dark ingredients; it at once enriched and retarded the whole process of adolescence as the spirit checks the fermentation of the wine, renders it undrinkable so that it must lie in the dark year in, year out, until it is brought up at last fit for the table.’
But I would be going on if I did that.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I don't know the scientific explanation for a port shutting down and then opening up again. I have heard David Guimaraens' theory that it is to do with the spirit used in port production and that could well be some or all of the cause, but I am not convinced.

Like Owen, I have experienced wines shutting down and opening up in cycles. The revelation came with the 1960 vintage which when drunk in the early and mid-noughties was OK, but faded and light. By contrast, the same wines from the same shippers from the same provenance started performing unexpectedly well and are still doing so.

1994 is another year I have been following with interest, this being one of the first vintages I was able to drink on release. I have tried to drink a bottle of Vesuvio 1994 every year to track its progress. For a long time these wines retained their fruit, with the fruit dominating over the tannins and acidity and the whole wine being fruit led, structure second. In the last couple of years these have become much less balanced; still lots of fruit but now with the acidity much more pronounced and the tannins stronger.

I don't know what causes a port to shut down, but speculate that it could be something to do with the process that causes the sediment to form. I once read an article (in Scientific American or New Scientist or something similar) which discussed the way in which anthocyanins slowly reacted to form insoluble compounds that dropped to the bottom of the bottle. Perhaps this reaction reduces the levels first of the fruit flavours and then the tannins to ultimately leave something with little colour, little tannin lots of fruit sugars and the acidity. Perhaps there are points in this process where the balance is completely out and that is what we interpret as a wine which has shut down.

[djewesbury]

I think AHB's explanation is an excellent one - and we should remember that 'shutting down' is a subjective perception. Maybe we can judge this better as a continuum in the way Alex suggests. Different compounds precipitating in different ratios at different stages, producing many contrasting stages of evolution. We don't taste the same port often enough to be able to identify those stages.

[g-man]

I think AHB's explanation is an excellent one - and we should remember that 'shutting down' is a subjective perception. Maybe we can judge this better as a continuum in the way Alex suggests. Different compounds precipitating in different ratios at different stages, producing many contrasting stages of evolution. We don't taste the same port often enough to be able to identify those stages.

well

the first "control" test I would suggest

is a 750ml/375ml comparisons of the same wine every year.

[TLW]

I think AHB's explanation is an excellent one - and we should remember that 'shutting down' is a subjective perception. Maybe we can judge this better as a continuum in the way Alex suggests. Different compounds precipitating in different ratios at different stages, producing many contrasting stages of evolution. We don't taste the same port often enough to be able to identify those stages.

well

the first "control" test I would suggest

is a 750ml/375ml comparisons of the same wine every year.

With highly detailed notes from year to year on very specific - and as objective as possible - factors about the wine

[RAYC]

I think AHB's explanation is an excellent one - and we should remember that 'shutting down' is a subjective perception. Maybe we can judge this better as a continuum in the way Alex suggests. Different compounds precipitating in different ratios at different stages, producing many contrasting stages of evolution. We don't taste the same port often enough to be able to identify those stages.

well

the first "control" test I would suggest

is a 750ml/375ml comparisons of the same wine every year.

Ideally at least 2 or 3 bottles of each per year to allow for bottle variation...

[TLW]

I think AHB's explanation is an excellent one - and we should remember that 'shutting down' is a subjective perception. Maybe we can judge this better as a continuum in the way Alex suggests. Different compounds precipitating in different ratios at different stages, producing many contrasting stages of evolution. We don't taste the same port often enough to be able to identify those stages.

well

the first "control" test I would suggest

is a 750ml/375ml comparisons of the same wine every year.

Ideally at least 2 or 3 bottles of each per year to allow for bottle variation...

I presume that you mean "2 or 3 bottles of each format of each house per year to allow for bottle variation...."

We must, by all means, be thorough.

Else, we would just have to do it all over again.

[Andy Velebil]

I don't think the brandy used to fortify has as much to do with it as the wine itself and what it goes through as it ages. As even non-fortified wines, red and white, can and do suffer through periods of being "closed up." Not to say brandy doesn't affect it to some degree though. I don't think it's the largest reason, as we tend to hear in regards to Port.

What exactly causes it? No idea and while there is plenty of speculation, I'm not sure anyone has scientifically validated why it happens. I'm sure this is hard to do as it varies from wine to wine and year to year. So there isn't a benchmark which makes it easy to pinpoint. I would speculate there is probably a number of things which cause/affect it. Such as; wine production method, amount of filtering/fining, quality of brandy, phyenological maturity of the grapes, soil, storage conditions, racking, type of bottle closure, etc.

[LGTrotter]

As even non-fortified wines, red and white, can and do suffer through periods of being "closed up." Not to say brandy doesn't affect it to some degree though.

That is a very good point and not one I had considered. My recollection is that claret goes through a fairly predictable 'dumb' period between 3 and 10 years, but I am not sure that it opens and closes in the way port seems to. Is it something to do with the wine shedding the tannins and absorbing the oak? I always thought that it was the loss of primary fruit flavours to be replaced with the rich farmyard and hedgerow of a mature wine. It is those kind of characteristics whiich I look for in mature port as well.