Old vines or not old vines, that is the question...

[djewesbury]

I'll ignore g-man's comment, as I clearly stated where my info came from regardless if he thinks it flies in the face of other people's stated opinions here.

Except that saying "I'll ignore that" when you didn't quite manage to ignore it sort of misses the point of ignoring it.

[DRT]

Gentlemen,

Please remember this is a nice place to be.

On a slightly different subject, I do believe that JDAW and Roy have just demonstrated full agreement. Who would have thought that could happen

[Roy Hersh]

Glad you were able to parse that Daniel. Congrats!

[djewesbury]

An admin!
Please - separate thread...?

[DRT]

An admin!
Please - separate thread...?

Tell me where you want the split.

[Roy Hersh]

Derek,

I'll toast to that, but with Julian and I, it has happened a few times in recent threads on both sites.

[djewesbury]

An admin!
Please - separate thread...?

Tell me where you want the split.

#265?

[djewesbury]

Glad you were able to parse that Daniel. Congrats!

It is possible that in parsing this I also missed the point..!

[DRT]

Derek,

I'll toast to that, but with Julian and I, it has happened a few times in recent threads on both sites.

I must have missed those

[DRT]

Glad you were able to parse that Daniel. Congrats!

It is possible that in parsing this I also missed the point..!

Dewesbury, haven't you got homework to do?

[DRT]

An admin!
Please - separate thread...?

Tell me where you want the split.

#265?

Wilco.

[djewesbury]

Glad you were able to parse that Daniel. Congrats!

It is possible that in parsing this I also missed the point..!

Dewesbury, haven't you got homework to do?

Yes, correcting your spelling...

[DRT]

Glad you were able to parse that Daniel. Congrats!

It is possible that in parsing this I also missed the point..!

Dewesbury, haven't you got homework to do?

Yes, correcting your spelling...

Sorry, thought you were just looking a bit wet and got confused.

Please quote the post you want me to split from - "263" only appears on Tapatalk, which I am not on.

[djewesbury]

This one

-....particularly when you consider that the proportion of those Romaneira vines old enough to be producing VP quality grapes in 2011 was presumably much smaller (only 36 hectares of vineyard in 2004, for instance)

I'm going to take aim at this one widely held incorrect "fact." Vines do not need to be old to make great wines. That is a myth which has perpetuated for many reasons, marketing being just one.

[DRT]

Done. Will insert links.

[djewesbury]

Done. Will insert links.

thanks.

[DRT]

Done. Will insert links.

Done.

Ding-ding

[Andy Velebil]

But where we diverge is that when you have a "dead vineyard" such as after phylloxera and a full replanting is necessary, afterwards, you don't have to do full on total vineyard replantings as specific vines die off. Vines die at various ages and in the Nacional vineyard in particular, (I've visited 9x now) each time a vine dies it is replanted, one at a time or several at a time if the need is there. But that is way different than an entire parcel of 2.5 ha requiring a 100% makeover. Adding vines on an as needed basis allows the character of the Nacional vineyard to continue to show very similar characters with the x factor being the growing conditions in any specific year and how a specific grape variety within that parcel, reacts to those conditions.

Do we really diverge? I say we don't.

First off, no one really knows how much NN vineyard was replanted. It is very possible it may not have been 100% replanted in 1925. Of course, it is possible it was. But like I said, no one alive today knows with 100% accuracy was done back in the 1920's. Because no one was there and there are no records to support what was and wasn't done. There is no hard proof other than passed down hearsay from one person to the next. We all know how that goes in the Douro..so lets all be honest with ourselves here. Now, if someone can show me hard physical proof I will stand corrected.

Current story is this plot of land somehow miraculously survived untouched by phylloxera. Considering the soil isn't the type to resist the little bug and current ungrafted vines don't survive that long, I find this a little hard to believe since supposedly the rest of the quinta was hit by it. And if it was left untouched, why the need to totally replant it then? As that goes against what Roy just wrote. 1925 was a LONG time after phylloxera and by all accounts Noval was back in full business long before that. To anyone's knowledge that I am aware of there was no such thing as Nacional prior to 1931. So if that's the case, there was never a "replant" as it was simply just part of the vineyard up until someone decided to tear out grafted vines (or revive a mortórios) and plant ungrafted vines in their place. Then make Port from this small part of land by the main house.

When one starts to look at things objectively and scientifically, things don't seem to fully add up to the stories which have perpetuated over the years.

I suspect, pure supposition here mind you, someone or more than one person back in the 1920's said "Hey, I want a little plot by the house so I can plant some non-grafted vines like the old days. Here by the house we can easily keep an eye on them and tend to them. Make a small amount of Port for just us and some friends. Someone really liked the 1931 and decided to give some away as a thank you." And thus the tradition was born.

[RAYC]

This is fascinating. Accepting that there are all sorts of different opinions, I think we need a tasting with someone like Henry Shotton where he gives us an hour or so of his time on a techy vineyard presentation / Q&A and then we have some thoroughly nice port to make it worthwhile him having suffered whatever lines of questioning we came up with...(as long as we avoid getting consumed by discussion of NN31...)

[Andy Velebil]

This is fascinating. Accepting that there are all sorts of different opinions, I think we need a tasting with someone like Henry Shotton where he gives us an hour or so of his time on a techy vineyard presentation / Q&A and then we have some thoroughly nice port to make it worthwhile him having suffered whatever lines of questioning we came up with...(as long as we avoid getting consumed by discussion of NN31...)

I'm down for that if I'm over that side of the pond. Love talking tech with vineyard managers as you get real information on how things happen. Often times much different than the generic stuff told to the masses.

[jdaw1]

I do believe that JDAW and Roy have just demonstrated full agreement. Who would have thought that could happen

That always happens when Roy is correct.

[g-man]

In good spirit, I too will ignore roy's comments for the sake of also trying to ignore, wait, what was i ignoring again?

what would be interesting is the various afflictions on the grape vines and what action each one takes.

My understanding is that there is no current "cure" / control for phyloxera, you get it, it stays. You can rip out the vines but certainly eggs would still remain and it'll just infect the new plants.
I'd be curious if phyloxera is still in the soils of the nacional plot or if it was indeed miraculously spared.

one of the cool afflictions, much like boytritis, is Eutypa Lata
The dead arm is one of my favorite wines http://iv.ucdavis.edu/Viticultural_Info ... 171&ds=351 though being int he mclaren vale, it also picks up some eucalyptis of neighboring trees

[Glenn E.]

My understanding is that there is no current "cure" / control for phyloxera, you get it, it stays. You can rip out the vines but certainly eggs would still remain and it'll just infect the new plants.
I'd be curious if phyloxera is still in the soils of the nacional plot or if it was indeed miraculously spared.

From what I've heard, phyloxera doesn't especially like sandy soil, and the soil in the Nacional vineyard is both schist and sand. So while there's phyloxera in there, it's not as bad as it is in "normal" vineyards so that's why the vines can live as long as they do.

I've never done any research to try to confirm or deny that, though.

[Andy Velebil]

G-Man,
There is no chemical or other treatment cure for Phylloxera other than grafting onto resistant American root stock.

However, the little bug doesn't like and can't live in sandy well drained soil, such as the Mosel region and a few others in the world. It also has a harder time surviving in a pure schist soil, but the Douro is not pure schist. There is a fair amount of top soil above the schist where it lives. Why the Douro, along with most of Europe was devastated starting in the 1860's.

I've walked around the NN vineyard as have others, and I've looked at the soil and looked at the soil in other parts of the quinta. Haven't seen any appreciable difference....

But back to Roy's replant stuff. IF the Nacional vineyard was Phylloxera resistant as he and others claim, why the need to totally replant this small section in 1925? That was some 40+ years after the Douro had recovered from Phylloxera, Noval was fully back in business, and had already long ago been replanted. Why not just keep replanting a vine here or there as they died or didn't produce enough anymore? It's an interesting question even Roy can't answer. Because he, and no one else, really knows. It again falls back on the folk lore of this tiny plot of land which happens to make great Port.

[Andy Velebil]

My understanding is that there is no current "cure" / control for phyloxera, you get it, it stays. You can rip out the vines but certainly eggs would still remain and it'll just infect the new plants.
I'd be curious if phyloxera is still in the soils of the nacional plot or if it was indeed miraculously spared.

From what I've heard, phyloxera doesn't especially like sandy soil, and the soil in the Nacional vineyard is both schist and sand. So while there's phyloxera in there, it's not as bad as it is in "normal" vineyards so that's why the vines can live as long as they do.

I've never done any research to try to confirm or deny that, though.

Here's a pic of the Nacional soil. Does it look sandy? Interesting in that this tiny plot of land supposedly just happens to be THAT different from the rest of the Quinta. Again, makes one think

(scroll down the top part of pic is blacked out)