2012 Declarations

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DRT
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by DRT » 12:34 Thu 31 Jul 2014

The SFE price doesn't surprise me as it is consistent with their pricing strategy over the past decade or so. But I find the TFP pricing very confusing as they normally try to price everything at the top of the market. This looks like a fire sale.
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djewesbury
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by djewesbury » 12:37 Thu 31 Jul 2014

Are those matches in your pocket, Derek? Or are you just pleased to see me?
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by LGTrotter » 12:37 Thu 31 Jul 2014

I know that Malvedos and Guimarens are not as long lived but I have enjoyed twenty, thirty year old examples that seem comparable to proper vintage. I would point to the Vargellas 87 which wiser heads than mine have described as the best port of the eighties (I don't agree with this). So I would firstly say that ten years is too short a time to keep any serious port and furthermore that the 12s will prove to be a very fine vintage. Again I'm not sure why, just a hunch based on the mood music.

I thought that the Taylor pricing looked low as much as the Syms pricing looks high.

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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by idj123 » 12:47 Thu 31 Jul 2014

I agree with Daniel in that the H/Bs of TV2012 look plenty tempting at that price but the price differential is quite striking. Also, it would seen that the Noval can be obtained materially cheaper than I'd been quoted (Alex, another PM is winging your way!).

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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by Andy Velebil » 13:39 Thu 31 Jul 2014

As there was some questions as to the history of the Fonseca/Guimaraens label. Here is a bit from an article I wrote...
Before I continue I must inform readers that during the tasting, Adrian Bridge mentioned the history of this company was very complex. I later found out when doing research for this article just how complex it was. With David Guimaraens and Chris Forbes very gracious help after the fact, I’ve done my best to accurately condense that complex history here.

Fonseca was founded in 1815. In 1822 Manuel Pedro Guimaraens gained control of the Fonseca Monteiro Co., left Portugal for London, and began selling Ports under many names; including Manuel Pedro Guimaraens, Fonseca Monteiro & Guimaraens, Fonseca Monteiro & Co, Fonseca & Guimaraens and Fonseca & Monteiro. By 1840 the company was the second largest shipper of wine and this was also the year that saw the very first Vintage Port released under just the “Fonseca” label. From this point forward the company only used the “Fonseca” label for it’s finest Vintage Ports, retaining the other labels for lesser quality ones.

While Quinta d. Terra Feita was under contract to Fonseca to supply Ports, the 1909 and 1911 vintages were released under the Quinta d. Terra Feita label and not a Fonseca label. For all intents and purposes, 1931 is considered the first vintage under the Fonseca-Guimaraens label. 1931 also saw a Fonseca Special Reserve released as well. In 1933 and 1934 the company released Vintage Ports under both Fonseca and Fonseca-Guimaraens labels. However, after 1934 the company changed their policy and the two labels were never again released in the same year.

The London company of M P Guimaraens & Son closed in 1928 and the offices were moved to Oporto and operated under Guimaraens & Co name. Yet Guimaraens & Co. and Fonseca remained separately run companies until 1967 when Alistar Robertson merged the two companies together. A move that saved both companies from financial ruin and eventually led again to their rise in prominence. I must clarify this last point, while the administrative parts merged, the stocks of wine remained separate to retain each houses distinctive heritage, traditions, and wine style.

Unlike many Shippers who release a Single Quinta Vintage Port in non-classic declared years, Fonseca-Guimaraens isn’t a Single Quinta. It is a blend from the same Quinta’s that classic declared Fonseca’s come from. This allows them to be very selective in choosing the top barrels to blend into a high quality product. In essence, a Fonseca-Guimaraens is nothing more than a true Fonseca in a year not deemed a classic.

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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by PopulusTremula » 14:04 Thu 31 Jul 2014

If FG = F with respect to blend and assuming the method, care and skill required for producing both wines is the same for the two, what does that say about the margins for the two wines?

In a way SFE is at least consistent in that they price the SQVPs in a similar way to their ordinary VPs, albeit we would all like them to be consistently lower.

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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by LGTrotter » 14:17 Thu 31 Jul 2014

PopulusTremula wrote:If FG = F with respect to blend and assuming the method, care and skill required for producing both wines is the same for the two, what does that say about the margins for the two wines?

In a way SFE is at least consistent in that they price the SQVPs in a similar way to their ordinary VPs, albeit we would all like them to be consistently lower.
I think SQVP ought to be priced a bit lower, the margins presumably are evened out over the years. And when has any world class wine's price had anything to do with production costs? Rhetorical; never.

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RonnieRoots
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by RonnieRoots » 08:20 Thu 18 Sep 2014

Just spotted on their website that Quinta do Javali declared 2012 as well.

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Axel P
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by Axel P » 15:17 Tue 21 Oct 2014

Vista Allegre also declared 2012 Vintage Port. Quite decent.

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Axel P
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by Axel P » 08:46 Thu 23 Oct 2014

... and La Rosa. Just received sample. Havent tasted yet.

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uncle tom
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by uncle tom » 20:45 Thu 23 Oct 2014

but the price differential is quite striking
The relationship between the principal shipping companies is less than cosy at the moment, and their may be an element of point scoring here. Best for us mere mortals to simply take advantage of modest prices when they are offered.

With a case of Taylor '45 fetching £17,000 + BP at Christies today, we should enjoy the bargains whilst we can..!
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by jdaw1 » 11:53 Sat 25 Oct 2014

Axel P wrote:... and La Rosa.
Sigh, QuintaDeLaRosa.com stops at 2011.
Axel P wrote:Vista Allegre also declared 2012 Vintage Port.
And VAllegre.pt stops at 2007.

Nonetheless, added to first post.

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Axel P
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by Axel P » 07:30 Wed 29 Oct 2014

... Alves de Sousa.

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RAYC
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by RAYC » 12:42 Wed 29 Oct 2014

PopulusTremula wrote:If FG = F with respect to blend and assuming the method, care and skill required for producing both wines is the same for the two, what does that say about the margins for the two wines?In a way SFE is at least consistent in that they price the SQVPs in a similar way to their ordinary VPs, albeit we would all like them to be consistently lower.
I recall a comment from someone somewhere at sometime that, when made, FG has historically been produced in significantly larger quantities than F (or at least since the mid-80s, when the amount of Fonseca proper started to decline from the 40-50,000 cases produced in 1985). Unhelpfully i can't remember whether this was an informed statement by David Guimaraens or pure speculation by THRA!

In my mind Croft Roeda has always had a history of being priced at the very low end of VP - Roeda 97 was incredibly cheap for a long time and undiscounted merchant prices for the ex-cellars release of Roeda 1987 were (when i purchased in 2008) around the £20 mark all-in.
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by AW77 » 23:53 Wed 29 Oct 2014

I anyone wants to stock up on some of these VPs, the usual suspects can be found here:
http://www.seckfordwines.co.uk/Newslett ... Ports.html
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JacobH
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by JacobH » 11:42 Mon 03 Nov 2014

PopulusTremula wrote:If FG = F with respect to blend and assuming the method, care and skill required for producing both wines is the same for the two, what does that say about the margins for the two wines?In a way SFE is at least consistent in that they price the SQVPs in a similar way to their ordinary VPs, albeit we would all like them to be consistently lower.
One could argue the same about the Graham’s Six Grapes which is also supposed to be produced with Vintage Quality grapes (and has the added expense of filtration! ;-)).
RAYC wrote:I recall a comment from someone somewhere at sometime that, when made, FG has historically been produced in significantly larger quantities than F (or at least since the mid-80s, when the amount of Fonseca proper started to decline from the 40-50,000 cases produced in 1985). Unhelpfully i can't remember whether this was an informed statement by David Guimaraens or pure speculation by THRA!
I thought the Fonseca Guimaraens was now being produced in quite small quantities and was seen as a bit of a legacy product for the British market? I think that someone told me the plan was to make the Quinta do Panascal as its main second-label wine (since people expect a second-label VP to be a SQVP).
RAYC wrote:In my mind Croft Roeda has always had a history of being priced at the very low end of VP - Roeda 97 was incredibly cheap for a long time and undiscounted merchant prices for the ex-cellars release of Roeda 1987 were (when i purchased in 2008) around the £20 mark all-in.
Yes, indeed. Rather inexplicably, really, since it is consistently very good.
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by AHB » 07:13 Thu 06 Nov 2014

Roy recently posted a picture on Facebook of a complete vertical of Quinta do Vale Meao, which included a 2012 vintage.
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2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by Glenn E. » 16:52 Thu 06 Nov 2014

AHB wrote:Roy recently posted a picture on Facebook of a complete vertical of Quinta do Vale Meao, which included a 2012 vintage.
Yes, we tasted it at the Quinta. I had it behind the '11 and '07, and even with the '04. Superb juice.

thought it was already recorded here. D'ohh!
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by jdaw1 » 17:11 Thu 06 Nov 2014

+Quinta do Vale do Meão.

Not mentioned on website sigh whinge grumble whine annoyance.

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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by uncle tom » 17:50 Thu 13 Nov 2014

Has anyone tried the TV12 yet?

A well respected member of the trade (not in either the Symington or TFP camps) told me today that it was initially refused IVDP approval, and only won through on appeal. He described it as an unusually light wine for a VP, and not (in his opinion) very impressive..
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RAYC
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by RAYC » 19:02 Thu 13 Nov 2014

uncle tom wrote:A well respected member of the trade (not in either the Symington or TFP camps) told me today that it was initially refused IVDP approval, and only won through on appeal
I'm not sure that that is particularly significant in terms of the quality of the wine (as opposed to meeting some of the "characteristics" that VP is supposed to have) - for instance, I understand it was the same story with Bioma 2008.
Rob C.

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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by AHB » 21:20 Fri 23 Jan 2015

Glenn's recent article in Roy's last newsletter mentions a Kopke Sao Luiz 2012 vintage port
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by AHB » 17:00 Thu 12 Mar 2015

Some additional shippers making vintage port in 2012 have been added to the first post by me.
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by Axel P » 20:46 Thu 19 Mar 2015

Barros Quinta de Galura (Part of Sao Luiz)
Burmester Quinta do Arnozelo
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Re: 2012 Declarations

Post by AHB » 14:13 Fri 01 May 2015

I've just found out that Barao de Vilar declared 2012
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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