The Taylor 1985 Debate

[Glenn E.]

This thread was split off from this tasting note by Admin DRT.

It also seems to be going through a bit of a dumb phase, much like its sibling from Taylor did for the past decade or so. The Taylor has definitely pulled its socks up recently so hopefully the F85 will return to its previous form in due course.

Even so, Taylor with socks pulled up < Fonseca in dumb phase.

I've heard tales of these fantastic bottles of T85 coming from over the pond, but I have yet to encounter one myself.

[DRT]

Even so, Taylor with socks pulled up < Fonseca in dumb phase.

How can you be sure if…

I've heard tales of these fantastic bottles of T85 coming from over the pond, but I have yet to encounter one myself.

[Glenn E.]

Even so, Taylor with socks pulled up < Fonseca in dumb phase.

How can you be sure if…

I've heard tales of these fantastic bottles of T85 coming from over the pond, but I have yet to encounter one myself.

I've heard tales of unicorns, too, but don't expect to get to ride one any time soon.

[LGTrotter]

It also seems to be going through a bit of a dumb phase, much like its sibling from Taylor did for the past decade or so. The Taylor has definitely pulled its socks up recently so hopefully the F85 will return to its previous form in due course.

Seriously Derek, is the Taylor getting better? Having had it some years ago it seemed but a distant speck on the horizon compared to the racing duo of Graham and Fonseca. It can still be found quite reasonably so I might look out for half a dozen if you give it the nod.

[DRT]

It has shown much better than it used to at a few recent tastings. I checked the TNs here yesterday. AHB consistently rates it in the 88/89 range with three bottles achieving 91/92. That isn't bad Port.

The Fonseca is undoubtedly better, but has gone weird. As for Graham, it is lovely but I have heard questions raised about its longevity and it doesn't score as highly as Fonseca at its best.


AHB and JDAW (and others, I think) have commented on the recent improvement in T85. It's not just me! (and it certainly isn't a unicorn, but don't tell the Yanks or they will buy it all and drive up the price).

[Glenn E.]

It has shown much better than it used to at a few recent tastings. I checked the TNs here yesterday. AHB consistently rates it in the 88/89 range with three bottles achieving 91/92. That isn't bad Port.

The Fonseca is undoubtedly better, but has gone weird. As for Graham, it is lovely but I have heard questions raised about its longevity and it doesn't score as highly as Fonseca at its best.

AHB and JDAW (and others, I think) have commented on the recent improvement in T85. It's not just me! (and it certainly isn't a unicorn, but don't tell the Yanks or they will buy it all and drive up the price).

"Isn't bad Port" doesn't warrant a comparison to either F85 or G85, and that's what I've been seeing from the Brit side of the pond. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the newt that was T85 has got better, but I cannot see how it is comparable to F85 or G85 even if those are both experiencing down phases.

Yes, technically, there are questions about G85's longevity. It might peak at 40 years instead of 50. But it does score as high as F85 at their best, at least for some people. I'm one of them, and it has happened blind at least 3 times. One of those times I even thought I'd already identified G85 and scored it lower than F85 (which was easily identifiable), but I was wrong and my WOTN was in fact G85. T85 has never even been close.

For clarity, I like G85 better for drinking right now but I think F85 has a longer life ahead of it. And that's not just because I'll likely drink all of my G85 before both are fully mature.

[LGTrotter]

the newt that was T85

A cleanly struck ball, six or home run or whatever.

I think I have to take the side of the Americans on this one, if Glenn is representative of them.

[jdaw1]

AHB and JDAW (and others, I think) have commented on the recent improvement in T85. It's not just me! (and it certainly isn't a unicorn, but don't tell the Yanks or they will buy it all and drive up the price).

T85 was excellent a dozen years ago, but then closed. It became mediocre. But recently T85 has blossomed into an excellent Port, much better than F85 as it currently is. I suspect that when F85 reopens, it will be even better than T85 is now, but that praises the Fonseca rather than criticises the Taylor.

[LGTrotter]

But recently T85 has blossomed into an excellent Port, much better than F85 as it currently is.

Really, better than Fonseca? This feels like it is beginning to stretch credulity, the last Fonseca 85 I had seemed fine. I shall have to look out for a few of the Taylor.

[CaliforniaBrad]

But recently T85 has blossomed into an excellent Port, much better than F85 as it currently is.

Really, better than Fonseca? This feels like it is beginning to stretch credulity, the last Fonseca 85 I had seemed fine. I shall have to look out for a few of the Taylor.

Well, this is encouraging me to open a bottle of T85 (in the name of science, of course) this week.

Suggested minimum decant?

[DRT]

Owen & Glenn, you are of course correct. T85 is rubbish and not worthy of your ££. Let's leave it there.

JDAW (and others), let's buy it all up an laugh at those who thought the world was flat.

[DRT]

But recently T85 has blossomed into an excellent Port, much better than F85 as it currently is.

Really, better than Fonseca? This feels like it is beginning to stretch credulity, the last Fonseca 85 I had seemed fine. I shall have to look out for a few of the Taylor.

Well, this is encouraging me to open a bottle of T85 (in the name of science, of course) this week.

Suggested minimum decant?

2 hours. But anything upwards will suffice. This isn't port that falls apart in a decanter.

[djewesbury]

It sounds to me like you would suggest a purchase of 6 of each to compare over the next few years.

[DRT]

Owen & Glenn, you are of course correct. T85 is rubbish and not worthy of your ££. Let's leave it there.

JDAW (and others), let's buy it all up an laugh at those who thought the world was flat.

Sorry, I made an unforgivable omission in my previous post.

Let's but it ("it" being a 29 year old excellent VP that can be bought at the same price as current release unproven Taylor, Graham, Noval, or whatever) and laugh at those who thought the world was flat.

[CaliforniaBrad]

But recently T85 has blossomed into an excellent Port, much better than F85 as it currently is.

Really, better than Fonseca? This feels like it is beginning to stretch credulity, the last Fonseca 85 I had seemed fine. I shall have to look out for a few of the Taylor.

Well, this is encouraging me to open a bottle of T85 (in the name of science, of course) this week.

Suggested minimum decant?

Decanted: 3 Hours

Nose: Corked as a Quercus suber

Conclusions: That's inconvenient. I'm still thirsty. I'm still of the belief that I'd rather have a corked T85 than an F85 if one had to come out of my cellar flawed.

[jdaw1]

That was both unlucky and unhelpful.

[Glenn E.]

Owen & Glenn, you are of course correct. T85 is rubbish and not worthy of your ££. Let's leave it there.

I haven't said it is rubbish at all. I've said comparisons to F85 and G85 are unwarranted.

Dunno what you guys have done to your F85 over there. Ours over here is still fabulous. As is G85.

T85 was a newt of a Port. (Mind you, I like newts. They're cute. Nothing wrong with newts, aside from being poisonous and all.) If it's coming out of that funk, hurrah! But it was (for me) a 90-91 point Port before and I find it hard to believe that it can now possibly be 94-96 points to warrant comparison with F85 and G85.

Nose: Corked as a Quercus suber

See? More proof. Poisonous. It's a newt.

[djewesbury]

I must say I've never noticed my F85s being closed. Sorry. I think this is just groupthink. (I guess you wouldn't know what that is Glenn, working at Microsoft and all)

[jdaw1]

F85 was a big delicious opaque unready monster. Until about two years ago, when multiple bottles from multiple sources became closed and unbalanced. It will reopen, emerging as even better. But not now.

[LGTrotter]

F85 was a big delicious opaque unready monster. Until about two years ago, when multiple bottles from multiple sources became closed and unbalanced. It will reopen, emerging as even better. But not now.

Whilst accepting that all opines are equal I would have to 'go Glenn' here again. 'Unready monster' abso-bleeding-lutely, 'unbalanced' only in the sense that a cavalry charge looks unbalanced from the pointy end. 'Closed' not for me, I would have to be physically restrained from guzzling it.

A bit of tmesis going on there.

[LGTrotter]

(Mind you, I like newts. They're cute. Nothing wrong with newts, aside from being poisonous and all.).

Newts have never poisoned me and I have handling them regularly since early boyhood. I couldn't vouch for their eating qualities mind. I too am a bit of a newt fancier. Do they really call them 'guppies' in America?

[djewesbury]

That was a-bleeding-mazing tmesis there Owen. Nice work. 15 points.

[Glenn E.]

(Mind you, I like newts. They're cute. Nothing wrong with newts, aside from being poisonous and all.).

Newts have never poisoned me and I have handling them regularly since early boyhood. I couldn't vouch for their eating qualities mind. I too am a bit of a newt fancier. Do they really call them 'guppies' in America?

I've never heard them called guppies. Salamander (technically accurate as newts belong to Family Salamandridae)... maybe occasionally gecko... but guppy doesn't ring a bell. Where I grew up a "guppy" was a little fish.

Not all newts are poisonous, and even the ones that are generally aren't dangerous to humans unless you ingest the poison or it comes into contact with a mucous membrane. Translation: don't lick newts or stick them up your nose.

Are we far enough off topic yet?

[CaliforniaBrad]

(Mind you, I like newts. They're cute. Nothing wrong with newts, aside from being poisonous and all.).

Newts have never poisoned me and I have handling them regularly since early boyhood. I couldn't vouch for their eating qualities mind. I too am a bit of a newt fancier. Do they really call them 'guppies' in America?

I've never heard them called guppies. Salamander (technically accurate as newts belong to Family Salamandridae)... maybe occasionally gecko... but guppy doesn't ring a bell. Where I grew up a "guppy" was a little fish.

Not all newts are poisonous, and even the ones that are generally aren't dangerous to humans unless you ingest the poison or it comes into contact with a mucous membrane. Translation: don't lick newts or stick them up your nose.

Are we far enough off topic yet?

Nope. This thread has me curious enough to lick a newt tonight (in the name of science, of course!). Suggested minimum terrarium time before first lick?

[LGTrotter]

This thread has me curious enough to lick a newt tonight (in the name of science, of course!). Suggested minimum terrarium time before first lick?

Just pop and pour I think.

[LGTrotter]

Owen & Glenn, you are of course correct. T85 is rubbish and not worthy of your ££. Let's leave it there.

JDAW (and others), let's buy it all up an laugh at those who thought the world was flat.

Sorry, I made an unforgivable omission in my previous post.

Let's but it ("it" being a 29 year old excellent VP that can be bought at the same price as current release unproven Taylor, Graham, Noval, or whatever) and laugh at those who thought the world was flat.

The world is flat as can be demonstrated by trying to stick water to a tennis ball.
The second part of your post I entirely agree with. From a bang for your buck point of view I am in a fog as to why people are buying 2011. I have been hearing the scarcity argument; this seems redundant given the apparently endless supply of good old ports which just keep coming. I may be wrong but there are few if any ports of the 21st century which cannot be bought now for roughly the same price they were offered at originally. Bring on the first pallet of T85.

[DRT]

Bring on the first pallet of T85.

My mother had a friend, long gone to another place, who said I "had a leaning to the Priesthood". It was not until today that I realised that my ability to convert sinners to the path of enlightenment was indeed a gift to behold.

[LGTrotter]

Bring on the first pallet of T85.

My mother had a friend, long gone to another place, who said I "had a leaning to the Priesthood". It was not until today that I realised that my ability to convert sinners to the path of enlightenment was indeed a gift to behold.

I think it's called a vocation. If you've got one my understanding is that you cannot escape it, however hard you try. Converting the heathen to Taylor '85 is a start, but aspects of the priesthood may prove troubling should you join up...

Now what's the title of this thread again?

[LGTrotter]

Now what's the title of this thread again?

Now I remember;

It has shown much better than it used to at a few recent tastings. I checked the TNs here yesterday. AHB consistently rates it in the 88/89 range with three bottles achieving 91/92. That isn't bad Port.

The Fonseca is undoubtedly better, but has gone weird. As for Graham, it is lovely but I have heard questions raised about its longevity and it doesn't score as highly as Fonseca at its best.

AHB and JDAW (and others, I think) have commented on the recent improvement in T85. It's not just me! (and it certainly isn't a unicorn, but don't tell the Yanks or they will buy it all and drive up the price).

"Isn't bad Port" doesn't warrant a comparison to either F85 or G85, and that's what I've been seeing from the Brit side of the pond. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the newt that was T85 has got better, but I cannot see how it is comparable to F85 or G85 even if those are both experiencing down phases.

Yes, technically, there are questions about G85's longevity. It might peak at 40 years instead of 50. But it does score as high as F85 at their best, at least for some people. I'm one of them, and it has happened blind at least 3 times. One of those times I even thought I'd already identified G85 and scored it lower than F85 (which was easily identifiable), but I was wrong and my WOTN was in fact G85. T85 has never even been close.

For clarity, I like G85 better for drinking right now but I think F85 has a longer life ahead of it. And that's not just because I'll likely drink all of my G85 before both are fully mature.

I have just spotted the faint twitting of the Graham 85. This is not on and must be stopped. I too have heard of the issues about the longevity of the 85s, but then I remember the same questions about the 1970. And they were tosh too. Port as good as the Graham 85 won't fall off the perch suddenly.

[DRT]

I think you are both (Owen and Glenn) missing the point I am making.

I have not said at any point that T85 is better or the same as F85 or G85. All I have said is that it now seems to be better than it used to be. Both JDAW and AHB have said the same. Given that the price is still reasonable I think it is worth a punt, even just to keep your grubby hands off the G and the F.

[djewesbury]

keep your grubby hands off the G and the F.

With these stern words, the organist's mother unwittingly gave birth to pentatonic music.

[LGTrotter]

But recently T85 has blossomed into an excellent Port, much better than F85 as it currently is.

Ah yes, I am confabulating the two 'yes' campaigners for the T85, my apologies.

Better than the Fonseca, never heard the like in all my puff, I ask you. What kind of a man would say something like that, blah blah...

[Glenn E.]

But recently T85 has blossomed into an excellent Port, much better than F85 as it currently is.

Ah yes, I am confabulating the two 'yes' campaigners for the T85, my apologies.

Better than the Fonseca, never heard the like in all my puff, I ask you. What kind of a man would say something like that, blah blah...

Ah yes, I was doing the same.

{sackcloth and ashes}

[DRT]

Excellent. We are all agreed that T85 is splendid value for money.

I can't remember that last time I had the G85. I wonder how it is doing?

[jdaw1]

I am saying more than DRT. UK-stored F85 is grade-A fabulous port, currently bothered by a little acne. T85 would normally be the junior of the two, but she has just returned from a cure, bathing in Icelandic springs / the Dead Sea / Falkland Sound, and is so radiant that she is, at this moment, the finer of the two sisters. But the cheekbones of F85 will carry her further and better into her dotage.

[djewesbury]

I am saying more than DRT. UK-stored F85 is grade-A fabulous port, currently bothered by a little acne. T85 would normally be the junior of the two, but she has just returned from a cure, bathing in Icelandic springs / the Dead Sea / Falkland Sound, and is so radiant that she is, at this moment, the finer of the two sisters. But the cheekbones of F85 will carry her further and better into her dotage.

I can imagine SCP-DFF rolling her eyes right now...

[Glenn E.]

Excellent. We are all agreed that T85 is splendid value for money.

Not sure I'd go that far. Taylor, Graham, and Fonseca are all available for the same $80 in the US right now. (Graham for $75, actually.) I would have multiple cases of both Graham and Fonseca at that price before I'd get my first bottle of Taylor.

Is it an excellent Port? Yes, it qualifies as such by my ratings, barely.

Is it improved? Sure, I'll believe that, though I haven't had it recently enough to say for sure.

But it is overpriced vs its contemporaries based on QPR, likely due to name alone. In the abstract it's a good value for a 29-yr old wine, but there are plenty of better values available both at its price level and at its quality level.

I can't remember that last time I had the G85. I wonder how it is doing?

Terrible. Absolute rubbish. You should leave all of yours at TBH for me to pick up and dispose of for you.

[Glenn E.]

I am saying more than DRT. UK-stored F85 is grade-A fabulous port, currently bothered by a little acne. T85 would normally be the junior of the two, but she has just returned from a cure, bathing in Icelandic springs / the Dead Sea / Falkland Sound, and is so radiant that she is, at this moment, the finer of the two sisters. But the cheekbones of F85 will carry her further and better into her dotage.

I can imagine SCP-DFF rolling her eyes right now...

No, that was me. It was such an epic eye-roll that you could see it from across the pond.

[djewesbury]

All are available at around £50 +duty +VAT in the UK. There's no big differential; but whereas T85 is plentiful, G85 has the dentures of a pullet.

[djewesbury]

I am saying more than DRT. UK-stored F85 is grade-A fabulous port, currently bothered by a little acne. T85 would normally be the junior of the two, but she has just returned from a cure, bathing in Icelandic springs / the Dead Sea / Falkland Sound, and is so radiant that she is, at this moment, the finer of the two sisters. But the cheekbones of F85 will carry her further and better into her dotage.

I can imagine SCP-DFF rolling her eyes right now...

No, that was me. It was such an epic eye-roll that you could see it from across the pond.

And across the Baltic to Berlin. Jeez, your sockets must be sore..

[LGTrotter]

I can't remember that last time I had the G85. I wonder how it is doing?

It is a joyous and loud acclamation of life, and will remain so until both of us are pushing up the daisies.

Glenn; I think you're right and Derek is overplaying his hand.

However let me show my colours and say that I have never cared for Taylor. It is generally over priced, for no readily apparent reason, the style is better done elsewhere and it takes itself far too seriously. Like people who take themselves too seriously it is difficult to be around and sucks all the fun out of a room.

That's what I think of Taylor!

[LGTrotter]

I can imagine SCP-DFF rolling her eyes right now...

No, that was me. It was such an epic eye-roll that you could see it from across the pond.

And across the Baltic to Berlin. Jeez, your sockets must be sore..

And back across to Wessex.

[DRT]

I am saying more than DRT. UK-stored F85 is grade-A fabulous port, currently bothered by a little acne. T85 would normally be the junior of the two, but she has just returned from a cure, bathing in Icelandic springs / the Dead Sea / Falkland Sound, and is so radiant that she is, at this moment, the finer of the two sisters. But the cheekbones of F85 will carry her further and better into her dotage.

Surely the only way to assess the accuracy of this statement is to sample both sisters side-by-side?

[LGTrotter]

Pearls before swine?

[djewesbury]

I am saying more than DRT. UK-stored F85 is grade-A fabulous port, currently bothered by a little acne. T85 would normally be the junior of the two, but she has just returned from a cure, bathing in Icelandic springs / the Dead Sea / Falkland Sound, and is so radiant that she is, at this moment, the finer of the two sisters. But the cheekbones of F85 will carry her further and better into her dotage.

Surely the only way to assess the accuracy of this statement is to sample both sisters side-by-side?

I don't like the way this analogy is going.

[DRT]

Excellent. We are all agreed that T85 is splendid value for money.

Not sure I'd go that far. Taylor, Graham, and Fonseca are all available for the same $80 in the US right now. (Graham for $75, actually.) I would have multiple cases of both Graham and Fonseca at that price before I'd get my first bottle of Taylor.

Is it an excellent Port? Yes, it qualifies as such by my ratings, barely.

Is it improved? Sure, I'll believe that, though I haven't had it recently enough to say for sure.

But it is overpriced vs its contemporaries based on QPR, likely due to name alone. In the abstract it's a good value for a 29-yr old wine, but there are plenty of better values available both at its price level and at its quality level.

Another misinterpretation of my post. I didn't say it was better value than its peers. But it is better value than lots of its siblings.

[LGTrotter]

Another misinterpretation of my post. I didn't say it was better value than its peers. But it is better value than lots of its siblings.

Then we do agree; Taylor 85, like all other Taylor is overpriced, and should be ignored.

[djewesbury]

lots of its siblings.

Surely it only has one sibling? Croft wasn't a TFP brand in 1985 was it..? Are there others?

EDIT: Sorry, misunderstood; you mean its younger and older brethren. Yes, I see.

[jdaw1]

Surely the only way to assess the accuracy of this statement is to sample both sisters side-by-side?

Mrs W.: “Now I’m rolling my eyes.”

[djewesbury]

Surely the only way to assess the accuracy of this statement is to sample both sisters side-by-side?

Mrs W.: “Now I’m rolling my eyes.”

+1
I think the sisters would need to be pretty short-sighted to agree to be 'sampled' by anyone here (the incredibly handsome ones excepted of course, could you please identify yourselves?)