Terroir and Port

Anything to do with Port.
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JacobH
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Terroir and Port

Post by JacobH »

A few years ago I remember reading (or possibly hearing) that one of the motivations behind Niepoort’s Morgadio da Calçada project was to produce a Provezende-style Port which was otherwise unavailable.

I have been wondering about this recently, and the slightly unusal relationship between terroir and Port which is rather different to other wines.

On the one hand, Port was historically rather anti-terroir. The shippers blended, used different vineyards in different years, and made wines from vineyards spread out over a huge region. Even with the rise of the SQVP, there is still a strong anti-terroir streak to the way in which many shippers write about their wines. Microclimates are strongly emphasised to suggest that one Quinta will be completely different from its neighbours, and tiny parcels of grapes are now used to produced super-premium Ports, partly on the basis that their micro-climates are particularly good.

Yet, on the other hand, on a macro-scale, the three-fold division of the demarcated region is respected and followed. Most Port drinkers would probably say that there is a notable different from the light, early-maturing Ports of the Baixo Corgo (if one can even find many examples these days), to the classic wines of the central Cima Corgo and the tannic monsters that the Douro Superior produces.

Beyond this, though, there is little discussion of terroir, which strikes me as odd. If the Douro was in France, I am sure they would have broken it up, with Village-type sub-demarcations for the best areas. But is that made out in the wine? I think, in some areas, it probably is. Vesuvio and Senhora da Ribeira strike me as producing similar types of Port. Perhaps the Quintas around Pinhäo have a certain similarity, too (Bomfin, Roeda, Foz etc.).

What do others on :tpf: think? Has anyone else come across references to unusual Port styles, like the Provezende-style Ports Niepoort wanted to make?
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by LGTrotter »

I have slightly mistrusted the notion of terroir in port, which is odd given that I am quite staunch about this in other regions. I suppose that I have thought of single Quinta wines as a second tier wine, and they are not always from that Quinta. I have said elsewhere that I am unsure how the likes of Bioma, Vina Velha, stone terraces et al will affect the overall quality of the standard shipper wines, for this reason (and the price) I am wary of them. I cannot think that I have ever compared SQVP of the same vintage and shipper but from different Quinta, I would have thought this possible.

I cannot understand what Provezende style is, it is good that there are some bold experimenters out there, so long as I can go on buying my trad vintage I am all for a little innovation.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by djewesbury »

I too want to know more about Provezende style port, please tell us Jacob. I vaguely thought that Morgadio was just where they made some Moscatel.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by Cynthia J »

Hi Jacob (et al!) Provesende is a village north of Pinhão, up beyond Quinta da Cavadinha, which is at around 600 metres of altitude. I have never heard references to a "Provesende style" per se, but the distinction to be made between any wines and ports made up there versus the usual suspects, made at river quintas, would be the impact of the altitude. Altitude equals freshness, elegance and acidity. I can personally vouch for the wines of Morgadio da Calçada showing these qualities in spades - I visited the quinta just before Easter and wrote about it on FTLOP's blog - http://www.fortheloveofport.com/2014/04 ... a-calcada/

Regarding terroir generally, as a concept, in the Douro... remember that as a region oriented to the international market for dry wines (forget Port for a moment) the Douro is relatively young - it is perhaps only the last 20-25 years or so that winemakers have turned their attention to the possibilities of dry wine. There naturally has been a learning or maturation curve for winemakers to get their products and their marketing campaigns sorted. And equally, a learning curve for the international critics and consumers. Face it, if your customer has never even heard of the region at all, ever, is your first pitch really going to focus on the soil unique to your one small vineyard or property ? Nope. Right now the biggest challenge is around getting the Douro and Portugal on the map as a producer of fine wines. Germany had to get over Blue Nun, we've got to get over Mateus and Lancer's. I have been told point blank by UK importers that they are not interested in Portuguese wines above a very cheap price point - they don't believe their consumers are interested in paying over £10 for a Portuguese wine "because they aren't worth it." I will not record here my thoughts on the wine-market-awareness or palate of those importers!!!

That said... when you talk to the winemakers, they are keenly aware of their terroir - every inch of it. My first two winemaker visits in Portugal in March and April 2010 were Mateus Nicolau de Almeida in Foz Côa (his own project is Muxagat Vinhos Lda, and he makes the wine for LucindaTodo Bom and his father's Quinta de Monte Xisto project) and Cortes de Cima in the Alentejo. Mateus spoke passionately about terroir and microclimate in the Douro Superior, and makes the case for sub-regions particularly for whites. He is utterly convinced that Rabigato is markedly different in different pockets of the area around Foz Côa and Meda, that the conditions in each pocket justify sub-region-ification. In the Alentejo, as the Cortes de Cima head of viticulture António Claudio took me around on the quad bike, he commented that specific rows of vines made one lote and the next three rows made another lote, or in one case, the far half of a group of trellises was one lote, and the near half another. Why? What was the difference? We walked down and he pointed out to me a small declivity in the level of the soil towards the far end accompanied by a slight change in the soil quality, the stoniness. He then described to me the exact differences those made in the flavours of the wine from each sub-parcel.

So - Douro and Portuguese winemakers, and their wines, will speak to you of terroir, but it may be a little while till the market is ready to hear about it.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by Cynthia J »

I cannot think that I have ever compared SQVP of the same vintage and shipper but from different Quinta, I would have thought this possible.
For 2000, 2003 and 2007 (maybe others, but those I know) both a Cockburn's and a Quinta dos Canais were made. Also Martinez in each of those years. Might be interesting to line up and taste.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by JacobH »

Cynthia J wrote:For 2000, 2003 and 2007 (maybe others, but those I know) both a Cockburn's and a Quinta dos Canais were made. Also Martinez in each of those years. Might be interesting to line up and taste.
There are a few older ones, too. Taylor and Taylor’s Quinta de Vargellas 1970 (albeit the latter was a bit of an oddity). There are also some older Crofts / Roeda from the same year. Kopke is pretty consistently available in a Vintage Port and SQVP from São Luiz but I think, like Calem and Foz or Offley and Boa Vista, it’s never been quite clear if they are different wines or not.
Cynthia J wrote:Regarding terroir generally, as a concept, in the Douro... remember that as a region oriented to the international market for dry wines (forget Port for a moment) the Douro is relatively young - it is perhaps only the last 20-25 years or so that winemakers have turned their attention to the possibilities of dry wine. There naturally has been a learning or maturation curve for winemakers to get their products and their marketing campaigns sorted. And equally, a learning curve for the international critics and consumers. Face it, if your customer has never even heard of the region at all, ever, is your first pitch really going to focus on the soil unique to your one small vineyard or property ? Nope. Right now the biggest challenge is around getting the Douro and Portugal on the map as a producer of fine wines. Germany had to get over Blue Nun, we've got to get over Mateus and Lancer's. I have been told point blank by UK importers that they are not interested in Portuguese wines above a very cheap price point - they don't believe their consumers are interested in paying over £10 for a Portuguese wine "because they aren't worth it." I will not record here my thoughts on the wine-market-awareness or palate of those importers!!!
My lack of knowledge of table wines notwithstanding, I’m not sure whether this properly explains the lack of sub-regioning in the Douro. Partly this is historic: the demarcation was one of the earliest in the world and I’m pretty sure in the 1750s the average British drinker had less of a “cheap-only” attitude to Portuguese wines than today. But, more importantly, I’m not sure any other country worries about over-complication of their regioning system. The chances of a non-French consumer being able to describe a Macvin du Jura or Grand Rousillon must be pretty limited. And the chances of buying many of the smallers AOCs outside France can be limited. But then, of course, we might just put the French in a sepecial category of themselves!

Also, aren’t some of the other Portuguese regions divided up? Like vino verde? Or I might just be imagining that?
Cynthia J wrote:That said... when you talk to the winemakers, they are keenly aware of their terroir - every inch of it. My first two winemaker visits in Portugal in March and April 2010 were Mateus Nicolau de Almeida in Foz Côa (his own project is Muxagat Vinhos Lda, and he makes the wine for LucindaTodo Bom and his father's Quinta de Monte Xisto project) and Cortes de Cima in the Alentejo. Mateus spoke passionately about terroir and microclimate in the Douro Superior, and makes the case for sub-regions particularly for whites. He is utterly convinced that Rabigato is markedly different in different pockets of the area around Foz Côa and Meda, that the conditions in each pocket justify sub-region-ification. In the Alentejo, as the Cortes de Cima head of viticulture António Claudio took me around on the quad bike, he commented that specific rows of vines made one lote and the next three rows made another lote, or in one case, the far half of a group of trellises was one lote, and the near half another. Why? What was the difference? We walked down and he pointed out to me a small declivity in the level of the soil towards the far end accompanied by a slight change in the soil quality, the stoniness. He then described to me the exact differences those made in the flavours of the wine from each sub-parcel.
This is very interesting. Thank you for posting. Have Port winemakers talked in the same way or is this something that only happens at the table-wine end of the market?

What António Claudio said was exactly what I find interesting: the extremely strong emphasis on tiny parcels of land rather than the medium sized area of the surrounding vineyards.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by LGTrotter »

Thanks for that fulsome response, most interesting. I wonder if the variations which Jacob and you have noted could help me identify port which may closest replicate the elegant style of old Cockburn. I find that darker ports seem to be proliferating. I suppose I could just look at the map and identify which Quinta wines are furthest up the hill.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by JacobH »

LGTrotter wrote:Thanks for that fulsome response, most interesting. I wonder if the variations which Jacob and you have noted could help me identify port which may closest replicate the elegant style of old Cockburn. I find that darker ports seem to be proliferating. I suppose I could just look at the map and identify which Quinta wines are furthest up the hill.
Or potentially down stream where they were traditionally lighter? Of course there aren’t very many Baixo Corgo Ports these days, but there are some like Quinta / Casa de Santa Eufémia.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by AW77 »

Cynthia J wrote: For 2000, 2003 and 2007 (maybe others, but those I know) both a Cockburn's and a Quinta dos Canais were made. Also Martinez in each of those years. Might be interesting to line up and taste.
At the big Cockburn tasting we had some of the 2000 and 2007 VPs and SQVPs alongside:
http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.p ... sen#p65746
http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=67164

In 2011 Rózes made a standard VP and a Quinta do Grifo. I tasted them both at the big 2011 VP tasting in Leverkusen this February. I can't remember any details, only that I liked the Gricha better as it was more accessible.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by RAYC »

JacobH wrote:
Cynthia J wrote:For 2000, 2003 and 2007 (maybe others, but those I know) both a Cockburn's and a Quinta dos Canais were made. Also Martinez in each of those years. Might be interesting to line up and taste.
There are a few older ones, too. Taylor and Taylor’s Quinta de Vargellas 1970 (albeit the latter was a bit of an oddity). There are also some older Crofts / Roeda from the same year. Kopke is pretty consistently available in a Vintage Port and SQVP from São Luiz but I think, like Calem and Foz or Offley and Boa Vista, it’s never been quite clear if they are different wines or not.
I'm not sure whether I've misunderstood LGTrotter's turn of phrase, but I don't think any of these examples fit what he wants - two SQVPs of the same year from different Quintas of the same producer.

The most obvious one that comes to my mind is Dow - the Symingtons have released several Bomfim SQVPs and Senhora de Ribeira SQVPs in the same year I think, starting with 1998.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by Cynthia J »

Also, aren’t some of the other Portuguese regions divided up? Like vino verde? Or I might just be imagining that?
yes, vinho verde is, less certain about others off the top of my head, but I believe some may be. Regarding your further point about the example of France... ummm... you really think that's a great example worth following ? ;-) That said, don't forget all of this takes a force of will from makers, regulators, etc. Interesting though, and I will put on my list of concepts to pursue and research one day soon.
Have Port winemakers talked in the same way
(about micro-terroir) Well, SFE have Stone Terraces, doesn't Vargellas do an Old Vines, and then there's Noval Nacional - all premised on specific parcels within quintas which themselves create SQVP as well as contributing to full-on-brand VP (well, Noval...) I'm sure there are more. So implicitly that sells the concept of micro-terroir. Explicit discussion of this - yes, when you talk to a viticultor or wine maker standing on their land, yes, but as part of a marketing spiel - less common (again, given most makers are selling blended ports)

When SFE did their Quinta Vintage Port Tastings for the press in November 2011 their point was that SQVPs spoke of terroir in a way blended classic vintages could not. It was decidedly an effort at getting the idea of "terroir in Port / The Douro" out there. At the tasting they even had whisky glasses filled with samples of soil from several of the quintas, and Paul's presentation included lots of statistics comparing rainfall, average temperatures, soil composition and pH, and probably other things I am forgetting.

To LGTrotter - never having tasted old Cockburn, I can't be certain of the quality or taste-sensation you are looking for. Certainly, if you have a chance to taste Morgadio da Calçada, do!! I am racking my brains to think of other ports made from higher altitude parcels... and I can't off the top of my head.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by RonnieRoots »

RAYC wrote:
JacobH wrote:
Cynthia J wrote:For 2000, 2003 and 2007 (maybe others, but those I know) both a Cockburn's and a Quinta dos Canais were made. Also Martinez in each of those years. Might be interesting to line up and taste.
There are a few older ones, too. Taylor and Taylor’s Quinta de Vargellas 1970 (albeit the latter was a bit of an oddity). There are also some older Crofts / Roeda from the same year. Kopke is pretty consistently available in a Vintage Port and SQVP from São Luiz but I think, like Calem and Foz or Offley and Boa Vista, it’s never been quite clear if they are different wines or not.
I'm not sure whether I've misunderstood LGTrotter's turn of phrase, but I don't think any of these examples fit what he wants - two SQVPs of the same year from different Quintas of the same producer.

The most obvious one that comes to my mind is Dow - the Symingtons have released several Bomfim SQVPs and Senhora de Ribeira SQVPs in the same year I think, starting with 1998.
Also, Taylor's produces both Terra Feita and Vargellas in some years. I've tasted these next to each other on a number of occasions, very interesting to see the difference.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by RAYC »

Ah yes - and they go quite some way back too - at least to 1982 from memory
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by LGTrotter »

Thank you Cynthia, I shall take your advice and get to wine searcher. By old Cockburn I mean a paler shade, more elegant, an all round easier sip. I find the tendency for rather too extracted wines has spread. I always assume it is because port is an inherently heavy drink and it would seem to make sense to aim for more (density, colour) rather than less. I wish they would turn it down a little.

And thank you Jacob, I shall extend my searches down river.

Regarding the suggestions about Quinta ports; then yes, I was thinking of two vineyards made by the same maker. And RAYC has made an excellent suggestion about the two Dow wines. And now Ronnie too. Ta.

PS Cynthia; I cannot imagine the circumstances in which I could do a side by side tasting of Stone Terraces, Noval Nacional etc. I have no rich elderly relatives and I don't do the lottery. :wink:
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by Cynthia J »

I cannot imagine the circumstances in which I could do a side by side tasting of Stone Terraces, Noval Nacional etc. I have no rich elderly relatives and I don't do the lottery. :wink:
sigh... me either. If you do discover such a relative, I would like an introduction please. Personally, I'm drinking mostly water these days, and for a real treat I splurge on a bottle of orange juice.

re the cockburn. Hm. Colour will only pale with age, so you're stuck with inky purple from younger wines at any altitude. Thinking about higher altitude quintas... There's the upper reaches of Cavadinha, but of course it usually gets blended with lower altitude lotes; still, Warres or SQ Cavadinha can be more elegant and a bit lighter on the palate than many. Quevedo's São João de Pesqueira vineyards are around 650 metres, but his Vale d'Agodinho is on the river at Ferradosa. But worth trying if you have not yet. I have mostly had his colheitas and I did like the flavour profile as being not so klugey as many, cannot bring to mind a vintage tasting from Quevedo except a pure Vale D'Agodinho. Which I loved, but possibly not quite you are after. (But good - do try if you get a chance!) Will keep pondering this.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by djewesbury »

Owen, are you maybe interested in a small SQVP vertical, Bomfim, Senhora da Ribeira, Terra Feifa and Vargellas from years in which they were all released?
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Re: Terroir and Port

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I thught I should also mention that when the Symingtons did their UK trade tastings for the 2011s, they also presented the component "SQVP" lotes that went into the final Graham 2011 blend (together with details of the percentage composition that single quinta lote contributed to the final blend).

Sarah Ahmed has a nice write up of this (http://thewinedetective.co.uk/blog/port ... e-terraces - sorry, on blackberry so can't do proper link) and I think Jamie Goode also did TNs if you do a google search
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by Glenn E. »

We'll if someone can supply the Nacional, I have the Stone Terraces, VVV, and Capela. ;)
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by LGTrotter »

Glenn E. wrote:We'll if someone can supply the Nacional, I have the Stone Terraces, VVV, and Capela. ;)
I'm a bit reluctant to open one of my imperials of this so young.
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Re: Terroir and Port

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djewesbury wrote:Owen, are you maybe interested in a small SQVP vertical, Bomfim, Senhora da Ribeira, Terra Feifa and Vargellas from years in which they were all released?
Can't remember which vintage exactly (1987 perhaps?) but there is one year that Fonseca made a Quinta do Cruzeiro and Taylor a Terra Feita. Fun to taste together as these quinta's are neighbours. StevieCage had these and we tasted them once years ago, I don't know if there are tasting notes of it on this forum, but you could do a search.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

LGTrotter wrote:By old Cockburn I mean a paler shade, more elegant, an all round easier sip.
By "old", how old do you mean? Cockburn 1963, for example, is lovely and elegant but might be older or younger than you have in mind. I had a really lovely Sandeman 1970 a few days that was very elegant and similar in structure. I also find Ferreira evolves into a really lovely and elegant port.

I am sure that many of the ports released in the last few declarations will eventually turn into something like the old Cockburns - actually, that is exactly what the Symingtons are aiming for with the most recent releases - but I fear that it may take several decades before they have reach this peak of deliciousness. How long were you willing to wait?
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by AW77 »

AHB wrote: I fear that it may take several decades before they have reach this peak of deliciousness. How long were you willing to wait?
I think one should not wait too long. Because in the long run, we're all dead. This raises the question why producers go for these long-lived ports in the first place.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by LGTrotter »

AHB wrote:By "old", how old do you mean? ...How long were you willing to wait?
These two questions overhang all my thoughts about port. And I do not find them answered by the following:
AW77 wrote: I think one should not wait too long. Because in the long run, we're all dead. This raises the question why producers go for these long-lived ports in the first place.
Andre I think they are making them for you; so that when you are old and grey you can drink them and finally understand the comfort I have got from the Cockburn 1970. And leave a few for some unknown great niece.
The Cockburn 70 like the 63 is not a generally well rated wine but as Alex has rightly surmised; it is a style I adore. And I search in vain for something like it from the eighties and nineties. So thank you for the advice about Ferreira, it is not a wine I've tried. I am prepared to wait.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by AW77 »

LGTrotter wrote: Andre I think they are making them for you; so that when you are old and grey you can drink them and finally understand the comfort I have got from the Cockburn 1970.
I've tasted the Cockburn 1970 last year:
http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=67150
So I've got an idea what you mean.
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Re: Terroir and Port

Post by DRT »

There are very few experiences in life more comforting than a glass of Cockburn 1970. Any old Port at forty years old is not quite the same, excellent Port is hard to find at that age. Is that terroir or miraculous wine making? Who knows.
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