The Scottish Independence Referendum, 18th Sept 2014

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 21:52 Sun 14 Sep 2014

AW77 wrote:Sandeman's (I hope the apostrophe is correct in this case) has Scottish roots as well. So you could even have a Sherry (or stick to port).

There was a lovely set of programmes on BBC radio 4 about the Scottish links with wine, there was a very fine gent with a distinctly Mediterranean accent waxing lyrical on his connection with Scotland, port featured very prominently, Billy McKay was the presenters name (I think).

Post by **DRT** » 22:02 Sun 14 Sep 2014

djewesbury wrote:
LGTrotter wrote:And does anyone know when the result will be declared? Not sure where exit polls fit into this one either, if there are we could still all get an early night.
The count will begin as with a general election, almost immediately, but depending on the maths there could be no result until 7 am. And I'd be very wary of exit polls.

I do not know if this is accurate but it seems plausible.

But we can enjoy a few hours of speculation before falling asleep and missing the first announcement at 3am.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 06:38 Mon 15 Sep 2014

LGTrotter wrote:
AW77 wrote:Sandeman's (I hope the apostrophe is correct in this case) has Scottish roots as well. So you could even have a Sherry (or stick to port).
There was a lovely set of programmes on BBC radio 4 about the Scottish links with wine, there was a very fine gent with a distinctly Mediterranean accent waxing lyrical on his connection with Scotland, port featured very prominently, Billy McKay was the presenters name (I think).

Can't find any reference to a Billy McKay who is not a lower leagues footballer in Scotland. Tell us more please.

Post by **PhilW** » 07:32 Mon 15 Sep 2014

djewesbury wrote:
LGTrotter wrote:There was a lovely set of programmes on BBC radio 4 about the Scottish links with wine, there was a very fine gent with a distinctly Mediterranean accent waxing lyrical on his connection with Scotland, port featured very prominently, Billy McKay was the presenters name (I think).
Can't find any reference to a Billy McKay who is not a lower leagues footballer in Scotland. Tell us more please.

Perhaps Billy Kay?

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 07:35 Mon 15 Sep 2014

PhilW wrote:
djewesbury wrote:
LGTrotter wrote:There was a lovely set of programmes on BBC radio 4 about the Scottish links with wine, there was a very fine gent with a distinctly Mediterranean accent waxing lyrical on his connection with Scotland, port featured very prominently, Billy McKay was the presenters name (I think).
Can't find any reference to a Billy McKay who is not a lower leagues footballer in Scotland. Tell us more please.
Perhaps Billy Kay?

Excellent. Thanks Phil. I've heard of 'Knee Deep in Claret', in fact a bottle of Ch Beaumont labelled to celebrate its publication was in an auction catalogue I was reading lately.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 11:06 Mon 15 Sep 2014

PhilW wrote:Perhaps Billy Kay?

The very chap. Thank you Phil, I was lost amongst footballers too. They did a whole hour on port and the various Scottish families that nurtured the trade. But I have wandered from topic, again. I think it will have to be a Croft port. It may not be very Scottish but it sounds like it should be. Not being endowed with the gift of placemats I shall just have to write the word 'Croft' on a piece of paper and draw a circle round my glass. I shall of course also add the correct two digits. I'm not sure what I've got; 77 definitely, and the 94 (much too young). I think a couple of 70s and maybe a 66. The 77 will have to do.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 11:39 Mon 15 Sep 2014

I think this; http://www.billykay.co.uk/Audio/MP3s/Co ... donian.m3u may be the very programme. I drove Emma mad for a while by breaking into 'the silver tassie' which is the introductory song. Thanks again Phil for finding the site.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 12:49 Mon 15 Sep 2014

Cool! I'll listen to this as soon as I get out of here (work).

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 14:48 Mon 15 Sep 2014

As a non-voting Englishman I am already fed up with being constantly bombarded with rhetoric from both sides. My plea to those voting north of the border is, "Just get on with it".

I can't imagine what it is like for those in Scotland where the media noise must be several times worse than it is here.

I will fall asleep with my radio on and my earphones in. From time to time a particularly excited voice will, no doubt, partially wake me and I will absorb some of the news. Then I will drift back to sleep to the melifluous tones of James Naughtie until the next shouting occurs.

And when I wake up at 6am it will all be over and I can go back to reading about the latest Islamic insurgency in a part of the world that I have not heard of before. Whether Scotland has become independent or has remained part of the Union I will make a cup of tea, get dressed for work and head to the office.

And the discussion of polls and their accuracy is one which appeals to me. In 1992 I was polled three times before the election and on exit. Each time I lied about who I would / had voted for. I had become irritated by the polls appearing to attempt to influence how I thought so I decided to do my little bit to manipulate the polls - and I lied. And I felt extremely smug when the pollsters looked stupid after the election votes were counted. It seems that they had never considered the fact that they might be wrong other than through natural statistical variation, assuming that people only ever told the truth and behaved like data in a statistical distribution. Long live Patrick McGoohan.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 21:43 Mon 15 Sep 2014

djewesbury wrote:Cool! I'll listen to this as soon as I get out of here (work).

Robbed! Having got back in from the salt mines it would seem that all I'm getting is the introductory music.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 23:15 Mon 15 Sep 2014

Owen
Are you definitely drinking the Croft 77?

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 17:18 Tue 16 Sep 2014

djewesbury wrote:Owen
Are you definitely drinking the Croft 77?

Yes, if this will help in some master plan you have in mind. I probably will even if it doesn't.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 17:53 Tue 16 Sep 2014

LGTrotter wrote:
djewesbury wrote:Owen
Are you definitely drinking the Croft 77?
Yes, if this will help in some master plan you have in mind. I probably will even if it doesn't.

No master plan, I just thought this would come in handy to avoid confusion. There is a page for the cork. There is a decanter label. And obviously there are pages for Emma as well since you will be sharing. You can download the full PDF by right-clicking / option-clicking on the thumbnails.

EDIT: Oh and there are place-names as well. In case you each forget who you are. Sort of an ice-breaker.

Miguel Simoes · Post by **Miguel Simoes** » 19:22 Tue 16 Sep 2014

You can bet on the "no" on Betfair 1.27@1.28. That implies a 78% chance of rejection. Amazing how different the story is vs what the polls are showing.

idj123 · Post by **idj123** » 19:22 Tue 16 Sep 2014

I'm with Alex-I stated out ambivalent and am now thoroughly bored about this whole matter. It's only deemed to be a'matter' because the polls suggest so whereas the bookies have got it right. As a Welshman I'm often irked about the amount of media coverage afforded the Irish and the Scots but that's probably because my affinities lie more with the Cornish and Bretons

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 21:36 Tue 16 Sep 2014

Thank you Daniel for the placemats etc. They look lovely.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 21:49 Tue 16 Sep 2014

LGTrotter wrote:Thank you Daniel for the placemats etc. They look lovely.

My pleasure. Don't forget to use the place names. You need to set them at a point in the evening when you still remember who you are.

benread · Post by **benread** » 22:35 Tue 16 Sep 2014

The Telegraph business section yesterday had an amusing comment. Words to the effect that Alex Sammonds definition of bullying seemed very similar to most peoples definition of holding an alternate view to Alex Sammond.

Explain to me why any business would want to stay domiciled in Scotland when it is seemingly threatened for suggesting it may re domicile. Surely a better approach from a democratic country would be to suggest an intent to create an environment conducive to doing business. Alex Sammond seems to like wielding a stick not dangling a carrot as far as I can see!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

Post by **DRT** » 09:17 Wed 17 Sep 2014

A thought: if by some miracle there is a "Yes" result will the people of Scotland still be "British"? I think yes, in the same way that they will still be "European".

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 09:21 Wed 17 Sep 2014

DRT wrote:A thought: if by some miracle there is a "Yes" result will the people of Scotland still be "British"? I think yes, in the same way that they will still be "European".

You answered your own question. Britain is, before anything else, the name of the island where Scotland is situated.

Post by **jdaw1** » 18:11 Wed 17 Sep 2014

djewesbury wrote:You answered your own question. Britain is, before anything else, the name of the island where Scotland is situated.

Well, the British Isles, much to the dismay of a certain euro-zone neighbour, contain more than that.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 18:44 Wed 17 Sep 2014

jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:You answered your own question. Britain is, before anything else, the name of the island where Scotland is situated.
Well, the British Isles, much to the dismay of a certain euro-zone neighbour, contain more than that.

Debatable. The term is not universally accepted.

Post by **flash_uk** » 18:54 Wed 17 Sep 2014

My understanding was that Britain and The British Isles are not the same thing as Julian alludes to I think. Britain being the island containing England, Wales and Scotland. The British Isles including Britain, all of Ireland, the Shetlands, Hebrides etc etc.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 19:04 Wed 17 Sep 2014

flash_uk wrote:My understanding was that Britain and The British Isles are not the same thing as Julian alludes to I think. Britain being the island containing England, Wales and Scotland. The British Isles including Britain, all of Ireland, the Shetlands, Hebrides etc etc.

Yep. Exactly. I think that doesn't contradict what JDAW said. But the term 'British Isles' is not much liked by many in Ireland (as you must know), and not only those of a strongly republican persuasion!

Post by **DRT** » 20:44 Wed 17 Sep 2014

What Daniel described strikes at the root of the problem. I am quite certain that the great unwashed element in the Yes camp will believe that being an in independent Scot means not having to be British.

LGTrotter · Post by **LGTrotter** » 20:50 Wed 17 Sep 2014

Dare I mention the 'democratic deficit' which is driving the yes campaign. I think the idea of never having to do politics with anyone at Westminster ever again would gain traction in not a few of the provinces.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 20:57 Wed 17 Sep 2014

DRT wrote:What Daniel described strikes at the root of the problem. I am quite certain that the great unwashed element in the Yes camp will believe that being an in independent Scot means not having to be British.

I know exactly what you mean but I think there's a big difference between 'Britain' and 'British Isles'. One has always been the name of the island you are on. The other is arguably, at least, a term describing a power relationship developed over hundreds of years and only relatively recently being re-thought. If the Scots want to pretend that Scotland is not on an island called Britain, good luck to them.

Post by **DRT** » 21:20 Wed 17 Sep 2014

We agree entirely - I just think there are a couple of million people with their faces painted blue who haven't quite realised that reality yet.

For the record, I am firmly of the view that the archipelago known as The British Isles includes a very large emerald coloured island, but I can see why that geographic reality is politically unacceptable to the unenlightened.

Post by **DRT** » 21:28 Wed 17 Sep 2014

LGTrotter wrote:Dare I mention the 'democratic deficit' which is driving the yes campaign. I think the idea of never having to do politics with anyone at Westminster ever again would gain traction in not a few of the provinces.

Don't be fooled by the "we hate the Tories" mob. In my youth the Salmonites were known as "The Scottish Tories". Regardless of whether they are voting yes or no there will remain a deep distrust of politicians whether they are in Holyrood or Westminster or Brussels.

My resolve is strengthening with every minute that goes by. I am now thinking 65/35 is a distinct possibility.

Betfair paid out on No votes today.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 21:31 Wed 17 Sep 2014

Paid out? How?

Post by **DRT** » 21:32 Wed 17 Sep 2014

If you placed a bet with Betfair on a no vote they have paid out the winnings. Google it.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 21:35 Wed 17 Sep 2014

Just did. Blimey.

Post by **flash_uk** » 21:36 Wed 17 Sep 2014

DRT wrote:My resolve is strengthening with every minute that goes by. I am now thinking 65/35 is a distinct possibility.

I tend to agree. Last night I was thinking 58:42. Sadly, even if No carries the day, I suspect we are in for months and years of tedious devolution debates, which in the end (over say 10-15 years) might prove to be worse than a straight Yes.

Post by **DRT** » 21:37 Wed 17 Sep 2014

Indeed.

Post by **DRT** » 21:38 Wed 17 Sep 2014

My last post directed at Daniel.

It will only be drawn out if it is close. Which is why it needs not to be.

AW77 · Post by **AW77** » 21:40 Wed 17 Sep 2014

If I as a foreigner am allowed a remark (no offence intended): I guess that one of the roots of the problem is that "British" was for centuries equated as "English" not as "English + Scottish + Welsh + Northern Irish". I think it's good that "British" is now a more inclusive term.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 21:42 Wed 17 Sep 2014

AW77 wrote:If I as a foreigner am allowed a remark (no offence intended): I guess that one of the roots of the problem is that "British" was for centuries equated as "English" not as "English + Scottish + Welsh + Northern Irish". I think it's good that "British" is now a more inclusive term.

You're bringing up a third usage (the nationality, as opposed to either of the geographical usages) and a separate problem (the English). Complicated. Boggy ground.

Post by **flash_uk** » 21:44 Wed 17 Sep 2014

djewesbury wrote:
AW77 wrote:If I as a foreigner am allowed a remark (no offence intended): I guess that one of the roots of the problem is that "British" was for centuries equated as "English" not as "English + Scottish + Welsh + Northern Irish". I think it's good that "British" is now a more inclusive term.
You're bringing up a third usage (the nationality, as opposed to either of the geographical usages) and a separate problem (the English). Complicated. Boggy ground.

Yes indeed. There are many Welsh, Scots and N Irish who shun the idea that they are British. And many also who rejoice that they are British.

Post by **flash_uk** » 21:46 Wed 17 Sep 2014

I think I am right in saying that we have Wales, England and N Ireland represented next week at the Pre Harvest tasting. If only Derek were attending then we would also have Scotland, and could have a right old debate in person about all of this

Post by **DRT** » 21:49 Wed 17 Sep 2014

AW77 wrote:If I as a foreigner am allowed a remark (no offence intended): I guess that one of the roots of the problem is that "British" was for centuries equated as "English" not as "English + Scottish + Welsh + Northern Irish". I think it's good that "British" is now a more inclusive term.

"British" was in use long before England existed as a single state. The problem you allude to is actually the reverse in that "Britains" have for two centuries or more been commonly known as "English" throughout the rest of the world. That's the bit that causes the hackles to rise on the back of the Celtic necks.

Post by **DRT** » 21:50 Wed 17 Sep 2014

flash_uk wrote:I think I am right in saying that we have Wales, England and N Ireland represented next week at the Pre Harvest tasting. If only Derek were attending then we would also have Scotland, and could have a right old debate in person about all of this

I elect Wolfgang as my proxy.

Post by **DRT** » 17:48 Thu 18 Sep 2014

DRT wrote:Rab McGabe

A colleague at work just received a message from a friend who turned up to cast his no vote only to find that someone else had voted for him. My words might have been closer to the truth than I thought imaginable!

Sensible people that I have spoken to today are now seriously worried that the nationalistic frenzy is pushing this in the wrong direction.

Surely common sense will prevail!!

Post by **jdaw1** » 18:26 Thu 18 Sep 2014

DRT wrote:
DRT wrote:Rab McGabe
A colleague at work just received a message from a friend who turned up to cast his no vote only to find that someone else had voted for him. My words might have been closer to the truth than I thought imaginable!

That should be reported to the police, pronto.

Post by **DRT** » 18:40 Thu 18 Sep 2014

It has been. Apparently the polling station were handing out voting papers with the only identity check being "what's your name and address?" No ID required!

Post by **Alex Bridgeman** » 19:56 Thu 18 Sep 2014

Are there UN observers and independent monitors watching the vote and count?

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 20:11 Thu 18 Sep 2014

DRT wrote:It has been. Apparently the polling station were handing out voting papers with the only identity check being "what's your name and address?" No ID required!

Has anyone bothered to tell the BBC? Seriously!

Post by **DRT** » 21:11 Thu 18 Sep 2014

Is it too late for placemats?

Four very long days at the office have prevented a visit to my off-licence in St James's so these have been procured from Sainsbury's Local in Victoria:

The Balvenie DoubleWood 12 Year Old

The Balvenie DoubleWood 17 Year Old

The Balvenie Caribbean Cask 14 Year Old

Glenfiddich 12 Year Old

Glenfiddich Rich Oak 14 Year Old

Glenfiddich The Solera 15 Year Old

...all in 5cl format.

Post by **DRT** » 21:12 Thu 18 Sep 2014

djewesbury wrote:
DRT wrote:It has been. Apparently the polling station were handing out voting papers with the only identity check being "what's your name and address?" No ID required!
Has anyone bothered to tell the BBC? Seriously!

seems to be localised incompetence rather than Mugabe-style fraud.

djewesbury · Post by **djewesbury** » 21:13 Thu 18 Sep 2014

DRT wrote:Is it too late for placemats?

Four very long days at the office have prevented a visit to my off-licence in St James's so these have been procured from Sainsbury's Local in Victoria:

The Balvenie DoubleWood 12 Year Old

The Balvenie DoubleWood 17 Year Old

The Balvenie Caribbean Cask 14 Year Old

Glenfiddich 12 Year Old

Glenfiddich Rich Oak 14 Year Old

Glenfiddich The Solera 15 Year Old

...all in 5cl format.

It is NEVER too late for placemats, good God man, we're not savages. Just give me ten minutes.

Post by **DRT** » 21:14 Thu 18 Sep 2014

djewesbury wrote:
DRT wrote:It has been. Apparently the polling station were handing out voting papers with the only identity check being "what's your name and address?" No ID required!
Has anyone bothered to tell the BBC? Seriously!

seems to be localised incompetence rather than Mugabe-style fraud.