1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

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WS1
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by WS1 » 07:36 Fri 09 Oct 2015

flash_uk wrote:
AHB wrote:I'm happy to volunteer to be the TCA detector. I'm also happy to double up on the bottles I'm bringing if I can (I need to check what bottles I have where first).
I can turn up around 4 and give a hand with set-up.
Thanks you!
"Sometimes too much to drink is barely enough"
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by WS1 » 08:26 Fri 09 Oct 2015

Hmm, after reading the thread again and thinking about Daniel & Derek's strong opinions about precedents and back up bts I feel we go off topic. We are in agreement to do an 85 horicontal but also observed two opinions about intent of the tasting. One camp see's this as a fun event to which even a corked bt is no issue. Any complications or increased cost are not wanted.
The other camp would like to draw some conclusions from this tasting and have a keen interest to at least make an effort to try to eliminate TCA tainted port. Realistically on 15bts with a 30% cork rate we are talking about 4-5 bts potentially affected. Using 4 bts as an estimate for corked port in the tasting the cost would increase ~ 16£ per person on average given the assumptions sharing cost and assuming 45£s as an average price per bt of 1985 VP .
Apologies if my assumption of sharing cost is wrong but me just contributing a Calem 85 when others contribute Taylors etc. I do not think is right. Please let me know how we proceed with this tasting.

Overall I will anyway bring/send two bts of Calem 1985 since I found Calem ports in the 80s are likely cork culprits. Due to recent development at work there is also a residual chance I have to drop out of this tasting on short notice before the tasting. Hence I feel a bit guilty having added with my comments confusion to the tasting. I still feel it would be better to swap corked bts (not magnums) over as this is the first real tasting attempt on 1985 vintage port with decent bt age of 30 years to see what is what. Sorry that I do not just see this as a fun event.

regards

WS1
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by DRT » 08:44 Fri 09 Oct 2015

Wolfgang,

Unless I have missed it I think this is the first time there has been any mention of sharing costs for this tasting. I plan to bring Fonseca and Taylor as my contribution. Others have offered more, others less, but as 1985 is not a particularly expensive vintage I had assumed these mixed levels of contributions were acceptable to all involved. Perhaps I got that wrong.

Your initial suggestion seemed to imply that we attempt to double up on every bottle, which doubles the cost and widens the gap between contributions. That was partly the reason for my objection but it was mostly down to the concept of turning our tastings into events where turning up with a corked bottle becomes unacceptable. I don't want our tastings to become those sorts of events as it would put some people off if they have small stocks of port or if funds are limited.

I am fairly certain that (with the team's legendary lack of willpower at around 9pm) bringing along two bottles of Fonseca will result is two bottles of Fonseca being opened and drunk without the merest whiff of TCA being detected. The same could be said of many others that have no real reputation of suffering from TCA or any other flaw. This is what would significantly add to the cost of the tasting and should in my view be avoided.

However, if there are a handful of specific ports in the line-up that have a bad reputation for being corked and you are suggesting that we collectively fund a small number of second bottles of those ports only then that seems more reasonable.

I think it is also worth pointing out that it is possible to have fun whilst also learning something about the ports being tasted :wink:
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by flash_uk » 08:57 Fri 09 Oct 2015

jdaw1 wrote:...And any plan featuring any chance that Mike would have to take anything home is a bad idea. Very bad.
Very true :D :D

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by AHB » 09:02 Fri 09 Oct 2015

flash_uk wrote:
DRT wrote:
flash_uk wrote:This is not a vintage that the collective do not know reasonably well.
Why are we doing a horizontal then?
I presume that it's because we like drinking port together.
Top Ports in 2018 (so far): Niepoort VV (1960's Bottling), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994 and San Leonardo Very Old White (Bottled 2018)
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by WS1 » 09:22 Fri 09 Oct 2015

DRT wrote:Wolfgang,

....

I am fairly certain that (with the team's legendary lack of willpower at around 9pm) bringing along two bottles of Fonseca will result is two bottles of Fonseca being opened and drunk without the merest whiff of TCA being detected. The same could be said of many others that have no real reputation of suffering from TCA or any other flaw. This is what would significantly add to the cost of the tasting and should in my view be avoided.

However, if there are a handful of specific ports in the line-up that have a bad reputation for being corked and you are suggesting that we collectively fund a small number of second bottles of those ports only then that seems more reasonable.

I think it is also worth pointing out that it is possible to have fun whilst also learning something about the ports being tasted :wink:
I think here lies the misunderstanding; I have never intended to ask for another bt of Fonseca 85 or others to be opened at 9:00 PM since I likely have to leave by this time.... :roll:

The intention was just to replace bts which were corked. Obviously I did not factor in discipline issues around the team's legendary willpower! :lol:

On the other hand I thought with help of your life coach your willpower when it comes to port improved a lot! Also since your life coach and Daniel will be present at the tasting so what can go possibly wrong? :lol:

Look, I still think me just popping by with a Calem 85 (despite being good when not corked) is a bit mean. So whatever happens 2bts of Calem 1985 will be present.....

regards

WS1
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by Cedars28 » 09:28 Fri 09 Oct 2015

Hello fellow port-lovers

I'd love to join you on 25th Nov if there is space! I have almost recovered from my last foray

Best


Rupert

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by jdaw1 » 09:29 Fri 09 Oct 2015

DRT wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Assume we have twelve shippers for which one bottle in twelve is bad; and twelve shippers for which one bottle in two is bad. Open one of each. On average one of the ‘good’ houses will seem bad; and six of the ‘bad’ houses will seem good. Opening more bottles would improve the reliability of the measurement.
Discalaimer: what follows is nothing to do with tastings, just statistics.

So, we open twelve bottles where the expectation is that one will be bad and we find one that is bad, and we open another twelve where we expect six to be bad and six are bad. How does opening another twenty four bottles improve the accuracy of that expectation?
Because we don’t know in advance which shippers are good and bad. We are trying to assess that from the bottles. And one shipper that is actually good (unknown to us) will appear to be bad; and six shippers that are actually bad (unknown to us) will appear to be good.


DRT wrote:However, if there are a handful of specific ports in the line-up that have a bad reputation for being corked and you are suggesting that we collectively fund a small number of second bottles of those ports only then that seems more reasonable.
This seems to be the consensus, and I add my weight to it.

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by jdaw1 » 09:30 Fri 09 Oct 2015

Cedars28 wrote:I'd love to join you on 25th Nov if there is space! I have almost recovered from my last foray
Please list the 1985s that you have.

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by DRT » 09:45 Fri 09 Oct 2015

jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:However, if there are a handful of specific ports in the line-up that have a bad reputation for being corked and you are suggesting that we collectively fund a small number of second bottles of those ports only then that seems more reasonable.
This seems to be the consensus, and I add my weight to it.
If that is what is to be done should we also do something about balancing costs? I have no strong view either way but others might feel differently.
WS1 wrote:33% cork rate on the Taylor 85 case tasting
I checked through the 38 tasting notes on T85 on this site and only found one reference to "slight TCA" from one bottle from the case tasting and no reference to TCA in any other TN. Unless others feel strongly I do not plan to bring a second bottle of Taylor.
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by PhilW » 10:09 Fri 09 Oct 2015

WS1 wrote:... since I found Calem ports in the 80s are likely cork culprits.
Interesting; I've drunk my way through a couple of cases of Ca85 and some Ca83 over the last few years and have yet to encounter a corked bottle. I wonder whether I've been lucky, or you unlucky.

BTW, I agree with not setting precedents for requiring second bottles; though of course anyone may choose to bring a back-up if the bottle they decant is suspect or faulty, as several people have done on occasions in the past.

I would observe that given the number of bottles being drunk, the tasting is unlikely to be sufficient to draw many conclusions of statistical significance regarding TCA incidence on its own - certainly not per-shipper incidence, barely more than indicative for overall incidence (and no, Derek, I'm not even going near your statistical observation hand-grenade!).

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by AHB » 12:17 Fri 09 Oct 2015

In general, I prefer not to double up on bottles at tastings for a number of reasons - the main one being that it makes it more difficult to put together a line up of ports since we need to be able to source two bottles of each. By sticking to one bottle of each port we are able to be more flexible in the type of tastings that we can organise.

However, there are times when some of us are trying to achieve something slightly more cerebral than just glug some fine wine in good company over a splendid steak. I would also like to be able to judge and assess the 1985 vintage since I have quite a lot of it tucked away in storage and it is still quite cheap to accumulate. This is perhaps the right tasting for us to make an exception to the general rule of caveat bibentis (touch brim in direction of DJ) and have some of the bottles available in duplicate. There will be no increase in cost unless we open the duplicated bottles. If we expect a 1 in 10 failure rate then we'll end up opening 1 or 2 extra bottles, adding around £10 per person. If we get to 9pm and find that we are thirsty and start eyeing up the unopened bottles that is a much cheaper way of continuing the evening's port drinking than buying stock from TBH's cellar!

I like the idea of selective back-ups that are opened only if needed. If not needed we can probably arrange with Kasha to leave them in the cellar until an emergency arises or Mike remembers to bring a box with him.

I'm happy to double up on my Churchill as I have several bottles available. I only have one bottle of Graham 1985 at home but happy to buy another, safe in the knowledge that if it isn't needed in November then it will not go to waste.

I don't know how my contribution compares in cost to that of others, but if I am owed money I am happy to waive anything owed. I'm just pleased to have an excuse to share port with some people who will appreciate it!
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by jdaw1 » 14:03 Fri 09 Oct 2015

In this tasting, even if a guest accepts, we are already heavy on Port. To lose one or two to bad bottles would, in a particular and limited sense, lessen wastage. If doubling most, we should ditch a few shippers. Which?

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by flash_uk » 14:12 Fri 09 Oct 2015

jdaw1 wrote:
Cedars28 wrote:I'd love to join you on 25th Nov if there is space! I have almost recovered from my last foray
Please list the 1985s that you have.
Rupert can adopt something from me.

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by jdaw1 » 14:15 Fri 09 Oct 2015

flash_uk wrote:Rupert can adopt something from me.
Thank you, but he might have something interesting. Rupert?

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by DRT » 15:36 Fri 09 Oct 2015

AHB wrote:I don't know how my contribution compares in cost to that of others, but if I am owed money I am happy to waive anything owed. I'm just pleased to have an excuse to share port with some people who will appreciate it!
As am I :wink:
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by Axel P » 16:20 Sat 17 Oct 2015

I wold like to include the Ramos Pinto, Andresen and Noval and would like to receive information where to send these bottles in advance. If the majority doesnt agree to include these I will drink them all by myself.

Thanks

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by DRT » 16:23 Sat 17 Oct 2015

Axel P wrote:If the majority doesnt agree to include these I will drink them all by myself.
Now that would be a proper "German pour"! :lol:
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by DRT » 01:58 Mon 26 Oct 2015

Profuse apologies, gentlemen, but I am now unavoidably unavailable for this tasting.

If my F85 and/or T85 are required please let me know and I will arrange for them to be present.

If anyone who has yet to put forward a contribution wishes to adopt one or both please PM me.
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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by Axel P » 14:54 Thu 29 Oct 2015

Please add Ramos Pinto, Andresen and Noval as Julian will bring them to the tasting.

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by flash_uk » 17:13 Thu 29 Oct 2015

Axel P wrote:Please add Ramos Pinto, Andresen and Noval as Julian will bring them to the tasting.

Axel
Done

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by flash_uk » 17:16 Thu 29 Oct 2015

We now have 19 bottles and 1 magnum between currently, ten attendees. What could possibly go wrong!?

I think we either need to enlist some more people to help sup, or make some choices about reducing the line-up.

Thoughts?

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by CPR 1 » 17:41 Thu 29 Oct 2015

Agreed, one or the other needs to give; if we need to cull one option would be to cull the lesser seen shippers that even if we liked we couldn't buy more of?

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by jdaw1 » 20:07 Thu 29 Oct 2015

We agreed on Tuesday that we ought to taste those that come to auction most often.
By email, THRA wrote:The most seen '85s are:

Taylor
Dow
Fonseca
Warre
Graham

(in roughly that order)

The others make occasional appearances, but any one of those top five outsell all the others put together.
Beyond the top five the frequencies were described as “Quite an even spread”.

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Re: 1985 horizontal: Wed 25th Nov 2015, B&F

Post by flash_uk » 22:06 Thu 29 Oct 2015

If I had to pick three to drop I'd probably say Delaforce, Gonzalez M and Morgan.

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