German wine

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Anything but Port, this includes all non-Port fortified wines even if they call themselves Port. There is a search facility for this part of the forum.
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AW77
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German wine

Post by AW77 » 19:33 Thu 08 Jan 2015

The first seven posts of this thread moved here by jdaw1 from thread entitled Pointless Statistics.

PopulusTremula wrote: Germany - Regions (the only reds are from Ahr, rest are white)
Ahr 2.27%
Mosel 43.10%
Nahe 2.27%
Rheinhessen 50.09%
Unsurprisingly, I find this part of your cellar quite interesting. I think it's quite unusual that Ahr wines are drunk outside Germany as this is such a small area with only a tiny production. Which producers do you prefer?

What surprised me though was that the Rheingau is missing from your cellar and that neighbouring Rheinhessen features so prominently. In my view Rheinhessen is to Rheingau what Beaujolais is Burgundy (no offence intended!). So what do you like about Rheinhessen (or maybe dislike about the Rheingau)?
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Re: Pointless Statistics

Post by PopulusTremula » 21:19 Thu 08 Jan 2015

Answers are quite simple:

Ahr: Meyer-Näkel, bought on a whim one might say. Have not tried any others.

Rheinhessen: I like Wittmann's GGs and Keller's GGs as well as other wines from K.

Have not tried Rheingau and the only big name that springs (to my somewhat narrow) mind is R Weil whose wines always struck me as a bit pricey. It also seems like a producer on rather large scale so i suppose i'm romantically inclined (as opposed to rationally) in that i prefer the young'uns like K and W over RW.

I'd be happy for some stable tips but in the main i'm now only buying GGs to keep my verticals (however modest) intact.

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Re: Pointless Statistics

Post by LGTrotter » 21:39 Thu 08 Jan 2015

A beautiful set of statistics if I might say so Mr Tremulous. Thank god there is someone out there with a vaguely balanced cellar.
PopulusTremula wrote:Also, at home i keep three bottles of 2004 Penfolds Bin 707, which i just can't seem to like despite showing them goodwill and being of an open mind. Just too much of fruit and everything else, to my palate at least. They have been kept well since purchase, in a dark crawlspace under the stairs. If anyone is interested i would happily swap them for some VP of equivalent value based on the price i paid (around £45 GBP).
Thank you no. I've got a few d'Arenburghs which I have no clear plan with. I wondered if I just left them for 20 years if they would settle down a bit. No joy yet.

I like the breakdown of port houses, I am fairly sure Graham would be my number one.

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Re: Pointless Statistics

Post by AW77 » 00:20 Fri 09 Jan 2015

PopulusTremula wrote:Answers are quite simple:

Ahr: Meyer-Näkel, bought on a whim one might say. Have not tried any others.

Rheinhessen: I like Wittmann's GGs and Keller's GGs as well as other wines from K.

Have not tried Rheingau and the only big name that springs (to my somewhat narrow) mind is R Weil whose wines always struck me as a bit pricey. It also seems like a producer on rather large scale so i suppose i'm romantically inclined (as opposed to rationally) in that i prefer the young'uns like K and W over RW.

I'd be happy for some stable tips but in the main i'm now only buying GGs to keep my verticals (however modest) intact.
Robert Weil is indeed overpriced, but so is Meyer-Näkel in my view (the RW of the Ahr). I will send you a longer PM over the weekend with some suggestions concerning the Ahr and the Rheingau.
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Re: Pointless Statistics

Post by PopulusTremula » 09:08 Fri 09 Jan 2015

AW77 wrote:Robert Weil is indeed overpriced, but so is Meyer-Näkel in my view (the RW of the Ahr). I will send you a longer PM over the weekend with some suggestions concerning the Ahr and the Rheingau.
Agree that M-N is not exactly cheap but it seems to me that top German Spätburgunder never is and also, not many are readily available in the UK. I would love to have multiple vintages of Fürst, Huber, Becker, Kesseler and the recent upstart Enderle & Moll in the cellar but my financial means and their availability seem to conspire against me.

Additionally, Keller is now making Spätburgunder which seems to be getting decent reviews. I have not tried them but if they're anything like his whites then they might be worth a punt, thus adding another name to the already too long list.

I would not be surprised if more top grade German Spätburgunder crops up in the future. Climate change alone, if nothing else, will make this more and more possible.

Look forward to your suggestions from Ahr and Rheingau. Thanks in advance.

Magnus

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Re: Pointless Statistics

Post by PhilW » 09:51 Fri 09 Jan 2015

PopulusTremula wrote:Look forward to your suggestions from Ahr and Rheingau. Thanks in advance.
I'm a big fan of dry German Riesling with clean mineral tones, particularly from the Rheingau region.

After some useful discussion and helpful suggestions from Andre I have been ordering mixed cases of Reisling from Kölner Weinkeller who seem to offer decent prices and inexpensive delivery to the UK (~17 euro). Considering how little Riesling tends to be available in the UK, this has been an excellent source, especially when you want a specific region. Most of what I have bought has been in the 10-20 euro category, not in the upper premium range, as I have been trying different wines to find my taste. After tasting quite a few, it seems that I strongly favour the Rheingau region (indeed in a recent Riesling tasting I think I was at the ~6th bottle where I took a sip and went "Ahhh, *now* we're talking" - sure enough this turned out to be the first Rheingau Riesling in the tasting!).

I realise that you may well be looking higher-end, but in case of interest my Riesling picks of the last year (with price in euros in [] after the name) were as follows:

# Robert Weil 2011 Rheingau Riesling Extra Brut Klassiche Flaschengarung [18.00] : Very well balanced, delicious
# Schloss Vaux 2010 Steinberg Riesling brut (sparkling) [19.50] : Very, very good, smooth, delicious
# Georg Breuer Terra Montosa 2004 [20.00] : Full, golden, minerals and green apples, tart sharp, honey finish
# Kloster Eberbach 2012 Steinberger Riesling trocken (Rheingau) [14.00?] : (I think around 14 euro, have lost my note)
# Juliusspital 2012 Wurzburger Stein Riesling Erste Lage trocken [12.50] : Crisp, clean, slight peach, mineral, strong acidity, sharp, slight metal, very tasty

I'm sure Andre will generate a slightly longer list :wink:
Also, looking back over old emails, plus your comment above, I see that both you and Andre find Robert Weil overpriced, but it seems I put him top - ah well :)

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Re: Pointless Statistics

Post by AW77 » 15:07 Fri 09 Jan 2015

This is really an interesting discussion. But I think it should be moved to a thread of its own (as we have digressed from the original topic). Could the moderators please be so kind and remove this discussion on German wine to a seperate thread under "Other wines"? Thank you in advance.
I will add my thoughts on Phil's and Magnus' posts tonight.
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Re: German wine

Post by jdaw1 » 15:41 Fri 09 Jan 2015

The above seven posts moved here by jdaw1 from thread entitled Pointless Statistics.

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Re: German wine

Post by AW77 » 18:55 Fri 09 Jan 2015

jdaw1 wrote:The above seven posts moved here by jdaw1 from thread entitled Pointless Statistics.
Julian, thanks a lot for moving the thread.
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Re: German wine

Post by AW77 » 02:37 Sat 10 Jan 2015

Magnus, you're right in saying that German Spätburgunder is really expensive. This is why I mostly drink non-German red wine as I think that other country's wines offer a better price-quality ration. However, if you look at prices in Burgundy, then top Spätburgunder is not that overpriced in comparison.

If you like Spätburgunder, just try Frühburgunder: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinot_Noir_Pr%C3%A9coce
You can get 9 of them at the Kölner Weinkeller. Like Spätburgunder, Frühburgunder is best after some years in bottle (probably best 10 years after the harvest).

Other good Ahr producers are:
- J.J. Adeneuer (http://www.adeneuer.de, I visited them last October and really thought that even their basic [say 15-20 €] wines are pretty good and will age well for some years and thus improve)
- Deutzerhof (http://www.deutzerhof.de/, you can get them at the Kölner Weinkeller)
- Kreuzberg (http://www.weingut-kreuzberg.de, you can get them at the Kölner Weinkeller)
- Nelles (http://www.weingut-nelles.de)
- Stodden (http://www.stodden.de)

In the Ahr valley you can also get a white wine made from Pinot Noir, called Blanc de Noir. This is a fruity (not in the sense of sweet) wine for the summer. It's one of my house wines for everyday.

Phil is right in suggesting a look at the Kölner Weinkeller. They have a huge collection of Riesling and their shipping rates to the UK are really good.
Other merchants you might want to have a look at are:

- Kierdorf Wein: They offer aged wines at fair prices. I have not bought from them before, but know people who did and were satisfied with their service. But I don't know how their shipping rates to the UK are like.
Their website is http://www.kierdorfwein.de, you can find their price list here: http://www.kierdorfwein.de/pages/weinan ... sliste.pdf (starting at around page 53, by the way: they also have a 07 Keller Spätburgunder for 26,80 €.)

- Bremer Ratskeller: they sell only German wine and offer some older vintages as well (I got the 04 Montosa from them). I don't know what their shipping rates are to the UK, but given that they're quite high within Germany (7,95 € if you order for less than 250 €) they might also charge more for deliveries abroad. Their website is: http://www.ratskeller.de

- Belvini: I've not ordered from them but they have quite a big choice of wines and seem to have reasonable shipping rates, too: http://www.belvini.de

- Ahrweinshop: As you're interested in Ahr wines, you might have a look at a shop that specialises in these wines: http://www.ahrweinshop.de

- Deutsche Weine: a shop specialised in German Wine: http://www.deutsche-weine.com/ I've not ordered from them as I can get most wines in local shops here in Cologne, but you might have a look at them.

As Phil mentioned, you can get very good Rieslings in the 10-20 Euro price range. In fact, my house Rieslings for everyday are in the 7-9 € price range. So there is really much fun to have below the GG range. I personally don't really like the GGs as they're a completely different style of wine than there used to be. The trend for ever more full-bodied and high-alcohol wines has turned many lovely Rieslings into fat monsters. It's like turning slim prima ballerinas into a female shot-putters.

As to the Rheingau:
Phil, you picked the only Robert Weil wine that has a decent price-quality ratio. But they hardly market their sparkling wine. When I visited them last August with Daniel I was surprised that they made a sparkling wine at all as I had not seen it anywhere before (they don't even mention it on their website in the section on the wines they produce). When I told the salesperson about this, he told me that they somehow make the sparkling wine almost for themselves and hardly produce more than 2000 (if I remember correctly) bottles each year (or have them produced by a sparkling wine specialist in Rheinhessen). So the bottle I sent you (i.e.Phil) is not really representative of RW.
Speaking of wineries where you have to pay a premium for the big name: Schloss Johannisberg is the same as RW. Overpriced for what they offer. So beware of them, too.

I can really recommend the following producers:
- Georg Breuer: in my view the best producer of the Rheingau. I can especially recommend the Terra Montosa and the Rüdesheim Estate:
http://www.georg-breuer.com/index.php?s=e_weine_montosa
http://www.georg-breuer.com/index.php?s ... tsriesling
I would drink them at around 5 years of age when they're not yet fully mature, but not young anymore either. Phil likes his Montosa fully mature at ten years, but then they lack the acididty that I personally like so much.

- Künstler: This is also another good producer in the eastern Rheingau. I especially like their Hochheimer Hölle Riesling Kabinett trocken. Their website is http://www.weingut-kuenstler.de .

- Kloster Eberbach: This is Germany's biggest winery which exclusively owns the famous Steinberg vineyard (the wine Phil mentioned). As this is a quite big winery, the quality could be better (it's good, but given the top vineyards they have they could do better). Phil and I really like the Steinberg Riesling and can only recommend it to you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinberg, ... r_Eberbach
https://www.weingut-kloster-eberbach.de ... ocken?c=30 (I think the sweet Steinbergers are even better made than the dry one, so also look at the Steinberg Kabinett and Spätlese too)
http://kloster-eberbach.de/weingut.html

- Wegeler: An estate that has holdings both in the Mosel (they own some parcels of the famous "Doctor" vineyard) and Rheingau. I can recommend the following wines:
Geheimrat J http://www.wegeler.com/en/rheingau-esta ... rat-j.html
Charta http://www.wegeler.com/en/rheingau-estate/charta.html
(Charta wines are made by other wineries, too. They're kind of old-fashioned nowadays, but offer exelent value for money. They price range is between 10 to 15 Euros. I drink them with around 5 years of age.)

Wegeler also offers small batches of already aged sweet wines for hardly more then the en primeur price of the recent vintage: http://www.wegeler.com/en/the-estates/v ... sling.html

Two small but upcoming producers to round out the picture:

- August Eser: this is not yet in the top League, but showing promise. Good value for money. I especially like their Oestrich Lenchen Riesling Kabinett Trocken and their Rauenthaler Rothenberg Riesling Steillage Trocken. More info: http://www.eser-wein.de

- Barth: I like their Charta Riesling. They make good sparkling wine, too: http://weingut-barth.de/

Speaking of sparkling wine, the best two in my view are Schloß Vaux (I like their Steinberger Sekt, http://www.schloss-vaux.de) and Raumland (I especially like their Cuvée Marie-Luise Brut, Blanc de Noir, http://www.raumland.de)

I hope this mass of information is not too much. Have fun trying some new wines.
Last edited by AW77 on 00:58 Fri 20 Feb 2015, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: German wine

Post by djewesbury » 11:04 Sat 10 Jan 2015

Palmers in Dorset (Owen's favourite shop) have the 03 Terra Montosa also.
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Re: German wine

Post by DRT » 11:32 Sat 10 Jan 2015

Daniel,

Do you want me to post my next recipe in this thread or somewhere else?
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Re: German wine

Post by djewesbury » 13:08 Sat 10 Jan 2015

DRT wrote:Daniel,

Do you want me to post my next recipe in this thread or somewhere else?
Here please! I'm sure everyone will appreciate it. :lol:
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Re: German wine

Post by DRT » 13:55 Sat 10 Jan 2015

djewesbury wrote:
DRT wrote:Daniel,

Do you want me to post my next recipe in this thread or somewhere else?
Here please! I'm sure everyone will appreciate it. :lol:
1. Place one large, quartered rabbit, a chopped onion, 12 sliced cloves of garlic, 6 cloves, 12 whole peppercorns and 2 bay leaves in a large bowl.

2. Pour in any bottle of German white wine.

3. Place in the fridge for 48 hours.

4. Remove the rabbit and dry.

5. Separate the solids from the liquid of the marinade.

6. Brown the rabbit in a large cooking pot.

7. Add the solids from the marinade and stir on a low heat until the onions are soft.

8. Add enough of what used to be the German white wine to cover the meat and place in an oven for 90 minutes.

9. Remove the rabbit and keep warm.

10. Strain the sauce to remove the solids. Thicken with cornflour if necessary.

11. Serve with a glass of mature LBV Port.

You see, German white wine can be very useful to have lying around, especially if you accidentally run over your neighbours pet rabbit :wink:
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Re: German wine

Post by djewesbury » 15:18 Sat 10 Jan 2015

Before I report you in Apostrophe Crimes, may I say how much I approve of this recipe. Rabbit is available very cheaply in Ireland, wild, not farmed. I can imagine it could only be proved with a bottle of Dr Loosen Erdener Prälat, or a Lidl Riesling.
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Re: German wine

Post by DRT » 15:29 Sat 10 Jan 2015

djewesbury wrote:a Lidl Riesling.
I think you need a Lota Riesling :wink:
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Re: German wine

Post by djewesbury » 15:31 Sat 10 Jan 2015

DRT wrote:
djewesbury wrote:a Lidl Riesling.
I think you need a Lota Riesling :wink:
That's so good I almost feel guilty for reporting you to the beak! :lol:
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Re: German wine

Post by DRT » 15:45 Sat 10 Jan 2015

I'm here all week.
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Re: German wine

Post by djewesbury » 15:46 Sat 10 Jan 2015

DRT wrote:I'm here all week.
In the German Wines section? I somehow doubt that…!
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Re: Pointless Statistics

Post by PopulusTremula » 11:54 Mon 12 Jan 2015

PhilW wrote:I realise that you may well be looking higher-end, but in case of interest my Riesling picks of the last year (with price in euros in [] after the name) were as follows:

# Georg Breuer Terra Montosa 2004 [20.00] : Full, golden, minerals and green apples, tart sharp, honey finish
AW77 wrote: - Georg Breuer: in my view the best producer of the Rheingau. I can especially recommend the Terra Montosa and the Rüdesheim Estate:
http://www.georg-breuer.com/index.php?s=e_weine_montosa
http://www.georg-breuer.com/index.php?s ... tsriesling
I would drink them at around 5 years of age when they're not yet fully mature, but not young anymore either. Phil likes his Montosa fully mature at ten years, but then they lack the acididty that I personally like so much.
Phil and Andre; thank you both very much for taking the time to provide such detailed and informed advice, really appreciated. I will definitely try to get hold of some Breuer.

Funnily, B has been on my radar since before i moved to the UK (in 2004) and got into wines in earnest as this producer is well represented at the Swedish state monopoly and seems to be getting very favourable reviews from the local critics. Ironically however, I have yet to try any of their wines but will now make an effort to rectify this. Künstler I have tried but was a little underwhelmed, which i attribute to a poorly stored bottle (protruding cork). I seem to recall a slight fizz as well, which I really dislike in what is meant to be a still wine.

Stodden and Adenauer I also know of, the former in particular seems to have a great reputation and with prices to match those of other top producers of German Spätburgunder. In general, when compared to Burgundy, I think there are quite a few good value German reds and even Chardonnay, especially below the top tier wines. For instance, I recall drinking a Göttelmann Chardonnay a few years ago which was truly delicious and a real bargain.

I don't think good Riesling is impossible to find in the UK although the range of producers is a little limited and the prices may not be super attractive. I have bought from Howard Ripley and The WineBarn and have only good things to say about both. They both do annual tastings for which I always seem to be unavailable but offer a broad range of wines.

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Re: German wine

Post by AW77 » 23:15 Mon 12 Jan 2015

I had a look at what the WineBarn has to offer. The Clemens Busch Estate Riesling is really good and punches above it's weight. I can really recommend that one. (Phil and I tasted the 2012 "Vom grauen Schiefer" in November and were not really impressed.)
The Solter 2008 Brut Rheingau Riesling Sekt - Réserve sounds like it would be just Phil's cup of tea as the wine description speaks of "precious minerality". I've never had a sparkler by Solter before, but I think I can get them at a local shop. Perhaps I should try it in spring or summer.
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Re: German wine

Post by AW77 » 23:14 Mon 21 Sep 2015

Egon Müller’s 2003 Scharzhofberger Trockenbeerenauslese smashed records last week when it sold for €12,000 a bottle at the VDP Prädikat wine auction in Trier:
http://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2015/0 ... on-record/
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