Content re-use: proposed rules

Make suggestions and report problems.
User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21438
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Content re-use: proposed rules

Post by jdaw1 » 17:59 Mon 05 May 2008

[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=14166#14166]Here[/url] SushiNorth wrote:Shall we start a separate thread for the proposed discussion of content re-use?
Yes, here.

I propose that we do something like the following.
Copyright © for all the content on :tpf: ThePortForum.com remains with the original author. Any poster allows contributions to be quoted and re-used, subject to being attributed. Within the same thread as the original post, attribution is deemed obvious. If re-using the content in a different thread on :tpf: ThePortForum.com, the author’s handle would be sufficient. If quoting not on :tpf: ThePortForum.com, whether on the web or on paper, a link to the post must be provided.
Let’s see improvements to this before we have a vote.

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15456
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Post by DRT » 18:12 Mon 05 May 2008

Julian,

I think it would be helpful to the less technically minded if you could provide a sample quote for each of the three scenarios described above.

Thanks

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

Conky
Fonseca 1980
Posts: 1770
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007

Post by Conky » 18:18 Mon 05 May 2008

Have we got anything valuable that needs copyrighting? I suppose the Tasting Notes, at a stretch, or am I being naive?

Alan

User avatar
benread
Martinez 1985
Posts: 1431
Joined: 21:36 Thu 17 Apr 2008
Location: Reigate, Surrey
Contact:

Re: Content re-use: proposed rules

Post by benread » 18:23 Mon 05 May 2008

jdaw1 wrote:
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=14166#14166]Here[/url] SushiNorth wrote:Shall we start a separate thread for the proposed discussion of content re-use?
Yes, here.

I propose that we do something like the following.
Copyright © for all the content on :tpf: ThePortForum.com remains with the original author. Any poster allows contributions to be quoted and re-used, subject to being attributed. Within the same thread as the original post, attribution is deemed obvious. If re-using the content in a different thread on :tpf: ThePortForum.com, the author’s handle would be sufficient. If quoting not on :tpf: ThePortForum.com, whether on the web or on paper, a link to the post must be provided.
Let’s see improvements to this before we have a vote.
Julian / Derek,

I am not legally qualified but have been required to study law as part of my Insurance qualifications. A few things occur to me that may warrant further consideration. Firstly, do you intend for this to apply to all existing users, or just users first registering after you make the change? I suspect the former in which case you need some way of bringing this formally to the attention of all users. Secondly, how do you enforce this against people who are not registered users of this site? Lastly, it is a truly international set of users - do you intend for the laws of one country to be used in interpreting these rules?

I do wonder if this all starts to sound too formal but as someone new to the site I will leave those of you more closely involved to consider that. I doubt there is any commercial value in most of the meaningless drivel though!
Ben
-------
Vintage 1970!

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15456
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Post by DRT » 18:23 Mon 05 May 2008

Conky wrote:Have we got anything valuable that needs copyrighting? I suppose the Tasting Notes, at a stretch, or am I being naive?

Alan
I don't think we have any need to copyright anything here.

I would also ask whether or not we want to go down this path at all as it seems to be exactly the same sort of restrictive rule making that many here have criticised other sites for having. In any event, I think any rule which seeks to impose restrictions on other sites or publications such as suggested in Jdaw's third example is completely unenforceable and therefore could only be presented as a suggestion rather than a rule.

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21438
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Copyright explained

Post by jdaw1 » 18:28 Mon 05 May 2008

The proposal is as follows.
  • Everything I put here remains © me. :TPF: owns nothing.
  • You may quote my words of wisdom (if any can be found).
  • If quoting in the same thread, you, the quoter, needn’t do anything as it’s assumed obvious.
  • If quoting on a different thread, mark with “jdaw1†. The Image button does this for you. Easy.
  • If quoting off :tpf: (e.g., on :ftlop: or :ws:), then I can’t be quoted unless there’s a link. No link allowed? No quotation allowed. Link allowed? Then put one there.

Conky
Fonseca 1980
Posts: 1770
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007

Post by Conky » 18:37 Mon 05 May 2008

Phew....I'm glad we cleared that up.Image

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15456
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: Copyright explained

Post by DRT » 19:03 Mon 05 May 2008

jdaw1 wrote:The proposal is as follows.
  • Everything I put here remains © me. :TPF: owns nothing.
  • You may quote my words of wisdom (if any can be found).
  • If quoting in the same thread, you, the quoter, needn’t do anything as it’s assumed obvious.
  • If quoting on a different thread, mark with “jdaw1†. The Image button does this for you. Easy.
  • If quoting off :tpf: (e.g., on :ftlop: or :ws:), then I can’t be quoted unless there’s a link. No link allowed? No quotation allowed. Link allowed? Then put one there.
If what you are trying to achieve is to protect the copyright of individuals who believe they need it then I would suggest that the solution is for those users to declare what use other people can make of their material and then police it themselves. There is no need for a blanket rule to apply to all as most people probably won't care.

Ben, you and I posted at the same time. For the record, we are in complete agreement on this.

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
SushiNorth
Martinez 1985
Posts: 1299
Joined: 07:45 Mon 18 Feb 2008
Location: NJ & NY

Post by SushiNorth » 19:56 Mon 05 May 2008

Well this thread got moving quick. Rather than copyright, i would suggest Creative Commons. In particular, Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike, where we define the attribution as "The Port Forum" + Author's Username.

You can read more about creative commons, here:
http://creativecommons.org/
and in the links below...

And if you would like, here is a chunk of Legalese our lawyers had us use when we switched a forum from copyright to Creative Commons:
Materials and Content on this Web Site other than Reference Materials:
Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike: By submitting any information or material to be posted as Content on sections of this Web site other than the Reference Materials section of this Web site, You agree that your contributions are Works as such term is defined under and are governed by the provisions of the Creative Commons Attribution Share Alike license, and You grant all users of this Web site an unrestricted, irrevocable, perpetual license to use, reproduce, display, perform, modify, transmit and distribute that Content, and You also agree that any user of this Web site is free to use any ideas, concepts, know-how or techniques that You submit to this Web site for any purpose. You agree that You grant this license under the conditions that:

1) The content is attributed as follows:
"Derived from content on __ThePortForum.com__ as submitted by User's Name" where "User's Name" is the user name of the individual or entity that submitted the Content as represented on this Web site.

2) Any additional required attributions contained within the Content are also reflected.

3) You may only distribute the Content, and all derivatives thereof, under a license identical to the one set forth above.
For more information, review the Creative Commons attribution share-alike Deed and Legal terms.
Furthermore, You represent and warrant that You have all rights needed to license or republish the Content that You upload, post or otherwise transmit. You further agree that You will not use this Web site to engage in any illegal activities that violate any local, state, national or international law.
And yes, we'd need to let all users know about the change. But as this is giving them rights, rather than taking any away, i don't think it is necessary for them to "opt in" or "opt out."

User avatar
SushiNorth
Martinez 1985
Posts: 1299
Joined: 07:45 Mon 18 Feb 2008
Location: NJ & NY

Post by SushiNorth » 19:59 Mon 05 May 2008

SushiNorth wrote:
Furthermore, You represent and warrant that You have all rights needed to license or republish the Content that You upload, post or otherwise transmit. You further agree that You will not use this Web site to engage in any illegal activities that violate any local, state, national or international law.
That last bit isn't part of a content rights thing (and i didn't mean to include it) but i'm leaving it in my recommendation as a different aspect of this conversation -- protecting the site from users posting content they shouldn't.

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15456
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Post by DRT » 20:00 Mon 05 May 2008

Sorry, we don't need this. People are welcome to join and participate here simply for their interest in Port. They should not need to understand or adhere to any of this stuff.

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
SushiNorth
Martinez 1985
Posts: 1299
Joined: 07:45 Mon 18 Feb 2008
Location: NJ & NY

Re: Copyright explained

Post by SushiNorth » 20:05 Mon 05 May 2008

jdaw1 wrote:The proposal is as follows.
  • Everything I put here remains © me. :TPF: owns nothing.
Copyright is dangerous territory. Legally, no-one can repost copyright unless explicit permission is obtained from the copyright owner (and retained by the reposter), and it needs to be done each and every time the content is re-used. By owning your own content in that manner, we would need statements saying that any content posted here includes a grant of permission to TPF to repost on this site. However, it also inherently prevents anyone (other than you) from reposting anything they see here.

Creative Commons and CopyLeft (two alternative rights management systems) are set up so that content published under them is explicitly repostable, provided the terms of reposting are stated (and retained). Generally (but not always) that includes the term "Attribution required."

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21438
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Derek: may people quote your stuff elsewhere on the web?

Post by jdaw1 » 20:24 Mon 05 May 2008

Derek T. wrote:Sorry, we don't need this. People are welcome to join and participate here simply for their interest in Port. They should not need to understand or adhere to any of this stuff.
I think that this is incorrect. I think Derek meant to say that he doesn’t care, and wants somebody to do what’s needed in a way that means he doesn’t need to think about it. (Which seems to be the plan of jdaw1 and SushiNorth.)

Derek: may people quote your stuff elsewhere on the web? Please answer this: what do you want with your TNs, your descriptions, your comments? If people may not quote, that rule needs to be firmly stated. If allowed, you might want to impose a condition of attribution (do you? — I do).
• If quotation should be prohibited, state that preference clearly.
• If allowed (with attribution), that’s what would be achieved by SushiNorth’s excellent suggestion of Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike (a suggestion that I second).
• If you don’t care, say so, or say nothing.

User avatar
SushiNorth
Martinez 1985
Posts: 1299
Joined: 07:45 Mon 18 Feb 2008
Location: NJ & NY

Post by SushiNorth » 20:25 Mon 05 May 2008

Derek T. wrote:Sorry, we don't need this. People are welcome to join and participate here simply for their interest in Port. They should not need to understand or adhere to any of this stuff.
Participants don't need to understand any of this stuff, this stuff is for people re-using content from the site. For example, what if I took all the tasting notes, forthcoming house/vintage log, and sage advice, removed all attribution, and published it (copyright me) as a book?

Having some kind of re-use statement prevents that (and/or guarantees us free port if someone should be so silly as to try it). How stringently the policy would be policed (i.e. only in flagrant, extreme cases vs every trivial occasion) is a different matter, but without it there's no protection whatsoever.

If you don't think its an issue, ask JKRowling (now there's a lady who could like port, she lived in porto for a while, afterall)

User avatar
SushiNorth
Martinez 1985
Posts: 1299
Joined: 07:45 Mon 18 Feb 2008
Location: NJ & NY

Post by SushiNorth » 20:49 Mon 05 May 2008

SushiNorth wrote:
Materials and Content on this Web Site other than Reference Materials:
Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike: By submitting any information or material to be posted as Content on sections of this Web site other than the Reference Materials section of this Web site,
Scratch that silliness about "other than reference materials" -- should just be all-inclusive.

Simon Lisle
Taylor’s LBV
Posts: 194
Joined: 16:15 Fri 31 Aug 2007

Post by Simon Lisle » 20:59 Mon 05 May 2008

To be honest I think that the tasting notes are quite important It is the person or person's who've spent the time putting them together for this website ie Julian and others who should make the decision.I personally don't have a problem with it because I have put in no effort apart from my own tasting note's.I think they are an excellent reference point and use them often.

Conky
Fonseca 1980
Posts: 1770
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007

Post by Conky » 21:11 Mon 05 May 2008

If Jules and Soosh think it's harmless in its application, will only be used in unusual unforeseen occasions, and others like Simon think certain aspects are worth protecting, I'm all for it then.

I'm still pretty certain all my contributions dont add up to anything pinch-able, but what the heck...

Alan

(Just thought...My joke Thread...Call the Lawyers!)

User avatar
SushiNorth
Martinez 1985
Posts: 1299
Joined: 07:45 Mon 18 Feb 2008
Location: NJ & NY

Post by SushiNorth » 21:32 Mon 05 May 2008

Simon Lisle wrote:To be honest I think that the tasting notes are quite important It is the person or person's who've spent the time putting them together for this website ie Julian and others who should make the decision.I personally don't have a problem with it because I have put in no effort apart from my own tasting note's.I think they are an excellent reference point and use them often.
LoL! I agree! I've only put in one or two on cheap plonk, but I've made hundreds of dollars worth of buying decisions based in part on the tasting notes posted here. I hope to return the favor as those start getting drunk (or i do, or something like that).

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15456
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: Derek: may people quote your stuff elsewhere on the web?

Post by DRT » 21:44 Mon 05 May 2008

jdaw1 wrote:
Derek T. wrote:Sorry, we don't need this. People are welcome to join and participate here simply for their interest in Port. They should not need to understand or adhere to any of this stuff.
I think that this is incorrect. I think Derek meant to say that he doesn’t care, and wants somebody to do what’s needed in a way that means he doesn’t need to think about it. (Which seems to be the plan of jdaw1 and SushiNorth.)
Jdaw1 is incorrect: Derek meant to say what he said.

I have knowingly chosen to spew my thoughts about Port and drivel onto a public website that can be read by members and non-members alike. I care not that someone may choose to quote me somewhere else and care even less about the format in which they would display that quote. I do not think it is the role of this BB to protect what some members feel they have a need to retain any sort of exclusive rights to. That should be left to the individual to decide, to police and if necessary to pursue if they feel their rights have been in some way infringed.

I do not think it is appropriate to create some kind of legal policy around the content of this site and at the same time declare that it's members don't need to understand it. It is even worse to suggest that it can be imposed without the members consent because of a belief by some that it is to their benefit.

Not for me thanks.

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1900
Posts: 21438
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Derek: may people quote your stuff elsewhere on the web?

Post by jdaw1 » 21:53 Mon 05 May 2008

Derek T. wrote:I do not think it is appropriate to create some kind of legal policy around the content of this site and at the same time declare that it's members don't need to understand it. It is even worse to suggest that it can be imposed without the members consent because of a belief by some that it is to their benefit.
It is not being imposed on members. It is being imposed on third parties wishing to quote what members have posted here. And the obligation being imposed on those third parties is only that they give attribution to what they quote. It’s no burden on members, and minimal on those quoting members.

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15456
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: Derek: may people quote your stuff elsewhere on the web?

Post by DRT » 22:09 Mon 05 May 2008

jdaw1 wrote:It is being imposed on third parties wishing to quote what members have posted here.
How do you plan to enforce that? For instance, my post on FTLOP that links to the Cockburn Vertical thread on TPF could easily have used the introductory words that AHB posted on TPF (it doesn't, but just imaging it does). If I have reproduced those words but not attributed them to AHB what would be happening to me now?

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15456
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Post by DRT » 22:55 Mon 05 May 2008

I just noticed that I originally included the wrong quote in the above post and incorrectly attributed it to Jdaw - irony?

I have now corrected the above post so that it includes the correct quote.

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
SushiNorth
Martinez 1985
Posts: 1299
Joined: 07:45 Mon 18 Feb 2008
Location: NJ & NY

Re: Derek: may people quote your stuff elsewhere on the web?

Post by SushiNorth » 23:40 Mon 05 May 2008

Derek T. wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:It is being imposed on third parties wishing to quote what members have posted here.
How do you plan to enforce that? For instance, my post on FTLOP that links to the Cockburn Vertical thread on TPF could easily have used the introductory words that AHB posted on TPF (it doesn't, but just imaging it does). If I have reproduced those words but not attributed them to AHB what would be happening to me now?
Re: What would be happening to you now:
That would be between you and AHB, if he chose to police it.

We are not suggesting the creation of Port Bobbies, only that -- as it stands today -- those who might want a say over how their posts are used have no recourse. Creating a policy regarding re-use gives those who opt to enforce it on their content that option. It also gives the community options, should someone decide to republish everything. You may not care how your content is re-used, but by insisting no policy exist you deny others the rights to their content.

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15456
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: Derek: may people quote your stuff elsewhere on the web?

Post by DRT » 23:54 Mon 05 May 2008

SushiNorth wrote: You may not care how your content is re-used, but by insisting no policy exist you deny others the rights to their content.
I am not insisting on anything, merely expressing an opinion that I do not think this is necessary on this site and stating that I do not require such protection for myself.

Nor am I denying anyone of anything. If any member here chooses to make a statement that sets out the terms under which their content can be used by others then, in my view, that is for them to do themselves. I do not believe it is the role of this site to set a policy on behalf of its members as not all of those members will have the same opinion on what is and is not important to protect.

Let's pretend for one moment that it was SushiNorth or Jdaw1 who had started the Cockburn Vertical thread on TPF and I had posted but not attributed their words on FTLOP. What would be happening now?

Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

Conky
Fonseca 1980
Posts: 1770
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007

Post by Conky » 00:08 Tue 06 May 2008

I personally would be snoring!

Was that any help?

Post Reply