Standardised House Names

[jdaw1]

Derek T. is masterminding the creation of a definitive list of declarations. TPF already has a TN index. It is intended that these two will be cross linked, in ways to be determined, and maybe other things will also join in.

Hence it will be important to have a definitive list of how we write house names.

Q1. Do we reverse order and comma? “Quinta do Noval”, or “Noval, Quinta do”? This is not the same as the alphabetical sort order. We can perfectly well have a list of how house names are written that includes “Quinta do Noval”, and a parallel list sortable names (“Noval”). Indeed, the TN index program already has such. JDAW votes for “Quinta do Noval”, with the parallel list to control sort order.

Q2. With or without modifiers? “Cálem” or “Calem”? “Poças” or “Pocas”? “Rozès” or “Rozes”? “Quinta do Bragào” or “Quinta do Bragao”? (Or “Bragào, Quinta do” or “Bragao, Quinta do”?) JDAW votes for the modifiers.

Q3. Possessive? “Graham’s” or “Graham”? JDAW votes for “Graham’s” and “Robertson’s Rebello Valente”, and all others without the possessive.

Q4. Curly quotation marks? (We have to be consistent, to allow the different databases to talk to each other.) “Graham’s” or “Graham's”? “Robertson’s Rebello Valente” or “Robertson's Rebello Valente”? JDAW votes for curly.

Q5. Ligatures? “Offley” or “Offley”? JDAW believes that ligatures are too fussy for these tasks, especially as house names are often written on the bottles in all capitals.

When these questions are answered I’ll propose a list of standardised house names and ≤2-letter abbreviations (e.g.: N=Quinta do Noval; NN=Quinta do Noval Nacional; Ni=Niepoort; NC=Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo). Also I might to try find the websites of many of the houses: some are on dmoz.

[DRT]

Q1. Do we reverse order and comma? “Quinta do Noval”, or “Noval, Quinta do”? This is not the same as the alphabetical sort order. We can perfectly well have a list of how house names are written that includes “Quinta do Noval”, and a parallel list sortable names (“Noval”). Indeed, the TN index program already has such. JDAW votes for “Quinta do Noval”, with the parallel list to control sort order.

I am happy to go with a display name of Quinta do Noval and a sortable name of Noval.

Q2. With or without modifiers? “Cálem” or “Calem”? “Poças” or “Pocas”? “Rozès” or “Rozes”? “Quinta do Bragào” or “Quinta do Bragao”? (Or “Bragào, Quinta do” or “Bragao, Quinta do”?) JDAW votes for the modifiers.

Definately without for the purposes of data entry and submission of TN's. If Jdaw wants to mess around wiyth Unicode stuff when generating output then that is fine but others should not be asked to do this as they may not know how and it could make them think twice about positing.

Q3. Possessive? “Graham’s” or “Graham”? JDAW votes for “Graham’s” and “Robertson’s Rebello Valente”, and all others without the possessive.

Other houses use possessives as standard on labels so we can't just have it for Graham and RRV. Taylor's, Dow's, Warre's are just three examples of this. I say we drop the possessive across the board.

[
Q4. Curly quotation marks? (We have to be consistent, to allow the different databases to talk to each other.) “Graham’s” or “Graham's”? “Robertson’s Rebello Valente” or “Robertson's Rebello Valente”? JDAW votes for curly.

Straight, for the same reasons as my answer to Q2

Q5. Ligatures? “Offley” or “Offley”? JDAW believes that ligatures are too fussy for these tasks, especially as house names are often written on the bottles in all capitals.

Agreed, they are too fussy. Please also see answers to Q2 and Q4

[When these questions are answered I’ll propose a list of standardised house names and ≤2-letter abbreviations (e.g.: N=Quinta do Noval; NN=Quinta do Noval Nacional; Ni=Niepoort; NC=Quinta Nova de Nossa Senhora do Carmo). Also I might to try find the websites of many of the houses: some are on dmoz.

What will we be using the abreviations for?

...and here is Q6. Are we going to standardise on the naming of prominent Quinta's belonging to major shippers. In ready through various books I have seen examples where the same wine is described as:

• Croft Quinta do Roeda;
• Quinta do Roeda (Croft)
• Quinta do Roeda

I vote that we should incorporate the shippers name into the name of the wine. How we do that will be dependant on the outcome of Q1.

Derek

[jdaw1]

Good points. Slight confusion, which is my fault. How about, for display purposes, “Cálem”, but for the purposes of entry the machine should recognise it with or without the modifiers? So entry can be sloppy, output is nargy. Likewise curly quotation marks. This discussion is primarily about output: what the user sees.

For sorting purposes, “Dow Bomfim”, so that it appears immediately after Dow. But for display? I vote for “Dow Quinta do Bomfim”, like “Croft Quinta da Roeda”.

[DRT]

I vote for the following policy:

1. Display names should be written in full
2. Sorting names are entirely within the ownership of Jdaw and he should be given a free hand to decide what used providing the output is logical
3. Modifiers and curly things are not required from users but Jdaw is free to add these as he thinks fit
4. SQVPs should incorporate the name of the shipper and appear next to the shippers name in any output
5. Possessives should not be used

Derek

[jdaw1]

Works for me. But 4 is ambiguous, being satisfied by both “Dow Quinta do Bomfim” and by “Quinta do Bomfim (Dow)”. I prefer the former. Please be specific about your preference.

[DRT]

Dow Quinta do Bomfim

[jdaw1]

Are US or UK names prioritised? “Harvey’s (Martinez)” or “Martinez (Harvey’s)”? “Dalva (Presidential)” or “Presidential (Dalva)”?

[DRT]

Are US or UK names prioritised? “Harvey’s (Martinez)” or “Martinez (Harvey’s)”? “Dalva (Presidential)” or “Presidential (Dalva)”?

We need to be mindfull of the fact that Harvey's describes two different ports. I days gone by Harvey's of Bristol sold their own branded bottling which, like those of BBR today, could come from different shippers each year. The 54 was a Graham's and the 62 a blend of Cockburn and Martinez.

In more recent times, the brand name of Harvey's has only been used on Martinez VP.

I think we go for the shippers name for the index with brand names relegated to parenthisis:

Martinez (Harvey's)
C da Silva (Dalva or Presidential)

Derek

[jdaw1]

Naming questions:

• We have a TN for a Mitchellcoombes port, about which google has little to say except AHB’s TN. Correct name?

• “São Pedro das Aguias” or “Quinta do Convento de São Pedro das Aguias”?

• “Quinta do Noval Silval”? “Silval”? “Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval”? Yuck.

• “Barros Almeida” or “Barros”?

• “Quinta do Foz”? Just like that?

• “A Pinta dos Santos”?

• “da Silva”?

• “Poças”? Or “Poças Junior”?

• “Van Zeller”?

And are there objections to any of:

Abbrev.: Sortable, Display Name

{List removed as I don’t want people wading through now-obsolete material.} For TN purposes these may be suffixed with “tawny”, “LBV”, “colheita”, “garrafeira”, “crusted”, as appropriate.

[DRT]

Naming questions:• We have a TN for a Mitchellcoombes port, about which google has little to say except AHB’s TN. Correct name?

No idea.

• “São Pedro das Aguias” or “Quinta do Convento de São Pedro das Aguias”?

No idea.

• “Quinta do Noval Silval”? “Silval”? “Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval”? Yuck.

Quinta do Noval Silval is the second label VP produced by QdN in recent years. In times gone by they owned part of Quinta do Silval and used the name Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval on the label. I think both of these need to be used to distinguish between the two different wines.

• “Barros Almeida” or “Barros”?

Barros, Almeida & Ca. Vinhos, S.A. is the name of the company. Pictures of bottles that I have seen today have only Barros on the stencilled label. I would suggest we go with Barros.

• “Quinta do Foz”? Just like that?

Calem Quinta do Foz

• “A Pinta dos Santos”?

Yes, but A. Pinta dos Santos may be more accurate.

• “da Silva”?

This can be confusing. da Silva once owned Noval and the name has been used as a brand on their wines to this day. I have some da Silva LBV 1995, produced by Noval. C da Silva, on the other hand, is the company that produces Dalva/Presedential. We need da Silva in the list.

• “Poças”? Or “Poças Junior”?

Porto Pocas and Pocas Junior are both listed as brand names of the company Manoel D. Pocs Junior - Vinhos S.A. I would suggest we consolidate as Pocas?

• “Van Zeller”?

This is the name of the family that once owned Quinta do Noval. Their influence in the Douro seems to have been extensive for decades and it seems the name has been used on different wines from different places at different times. Suggest we leave it in.

[jdaw1]

• “A Pinta dos Santos”?

Yes, but A. Pinta dos Santos may be more accurate.

Source please.

• “da Silva”?

This can be confusing. da Silva once owned Noval and the name has been used as a brand on their wines to this day. I have some da Silva LBV 1995, produced by Noval. C da Silva, on the other hand, is the company that produces Dalva/Presedential. We need da Silva in the list.

Huh? Does that mean we don’t, because da Silva is either Noval or Presidential? Or is there a third?

• “Poças”? Or “Poças Junior”?

Porto Pocas and Pocas Junior are both listed as brand names of the company Manoel D. Pocs Junior - Vinhos S.A. I would suggest we consolidate as Pocas?

Are they different or are they the same? Have both ever been declared in the same year? Do they come from the same vineyards? Are they really the same? (I am very reluctant to discard information that might be relevant.)

(I have removed useless blank lines from the quotations of Derek’s posts.)

• Is “Quinta do Bragào” really “Sandeman Quinta do Bragào”? That isn’t obvious from google.

• Is “Quinta do Fojo” really “Churchill Quinta do Fojo”?

• “Harvey’s of Bristol”? “Harvey of Bristol”?

• “Hunt, Roope”?

• “Quinta das Lages” or “Graham Quinta das Lages”?

• “Quinta das Licieras”? Not well known to google.

[jdaw1]

• “Vale de Mendiz” or “Sandeman Vale de Mendiz”?

[jdaw1]

The state of play with the list of names:

Abbrev.: Sortable, Display Name

{updated list at top of page 2.}

as before, these may be suffixed with “tawny”, “LBV”, “colheita”, “garrafeira”, “crusted”, as appropriate. Also I’ve started to build a database of links: extras welcomed.

[DRT]

• “Vale de Mendiz” or “Sandeman Vale de Mendiz”?

Vale de Mediz (pronounced Val de Mendeesh) is now owned by Niepoort as is the facility that they use to produce all of their VP and the Douro red Charme. Although Nieeport do not produce a VP which uses this Quinta's name, I think we need Sandeman in the name on the index to make the distinction.

Interesting fact: It is the only Quinta that has circular lagars

Derek

[DRT]

• “A Pinta dos Santos”?

Yes, but A. Pinta dos Santos may be more accurate.

Source please.

Described by Suckling as "the weakest of the vintage ports produced by the Barros, Almeida group"

• “da Silva”?

This can be confusing. da Silva once owned Noval and the name has been used as a brand on their wines to this day. I have some da Silva LBV 1995, produced by Noval. C da Silva, on the other hand, is the company that produces Dalva/Presedential. We need da Silva in the list.

Huh? Does that mean we don’t, because da Silva is either Noval or Presidential? Or is there a third?

The da Silva family owned Noval and produced wines labelled with their family name. So we need da Silva in the list. C da Silva is the company that produces wines branded as Dalva and Presidential. So we need C da Silva in the list with someting in parenthisis to distinguish the brands.

• “Poças”? Or “Poças Junior”?

Porto Pocas and Pocas Junior are both listed as brand names of the company Manoel D. Pocs Junior - Vinhos S.A. I would suggest we consolidate as Pocas?

Are they different or are they the same? Have both ever been declared in the same year? Do they come from the same vineyards? Are they really the same? (I am very reluctant to discard information that might be relevant.)

My reading of the books I have is that they are the same, but I may be wrong so separation would be best. I have no evidence of both being produced in the same year.

(I have removed useless blank lines from the quotations of Derek’s posts.)

I am forever in your debt.

• Is “Quinta do Bragào” really “Sandeman Quinta do Bragào”? That isn’t obvious from google.

Broadbent's TN on the Bragao 31 indicates it was then owned by Sandeman but I have no evidence that this si still the case. Suggest Quinta do Bragao (Sandeman)

• Is “Quinta do Fojo” really “Churchill Quinta do Fojo”?

Yes. But the Quinta is owned by Borges and has also supplied other shippers. My understanding is that only Churchill have used the name of the Quinta as a brand.

• “Harvey’s of Bristol”? “Harvey of Bristol”?

Apologies for the gratuitous use of the possessive.

• “Hunt, Roope”?

A single TN in Braodbent's book. No idea what or who it is.

• “Quinta das Lages” or “Graham Quinta das Lages”?

Broadbent's book says it is owned by the Ribero family who sell all the grapes to Graham - this is a bit like the Fojo situation with an exclusivity clause.

• “Quinta das Licieras”? Not well known to google.

I have 24 x 375ml and 1 x 750ml bottles to prove existence. It belongs to the owners of Quinta da Romaniera. Apologies, the proper spelling is Liceiras. Here is a picture of their Ruby. The VP has a green label with gold writing, which is too awful to show on a public forum.



Derek

[jdaw1]

• “da Silva”?

This can be confusing. da Silva once owned Noval and the name has been used as a brand on their wines to this day. I have some da Silva LBV 1995, produced by Noval. C da Silva, on the other hand, is the company that produces Dalva/Presedential. We need da Silva in the list.

Huh? Does that mean we don’t, because da Silva is either Noval or Presidential? Or is there a third?

The da Silva family owned Noval and produced wines labelled with their family name. So we need da Silva in the list. C da Silva is the company that produces wines branded as Dalva and Presidential. So we need C da Silva in the list with someting in parenthisis to distinguish the brands.

OK, progress — Derek is correct. The website is www.cdasilva.pt; hence we should call it “C. da Silva (something)”. The website has pictures of the 1970 Dalva and the 1970 Presidential. Are we absolutely definitely unambiguously sure that these are and have always been the same juice with different labels? If yes, then “C. da Silva (Dalva, Presidential)”. If not, then two names: “C. da Silva (Dalva)” and “C. da Silva (Presidential)”.

This reasoning suggests a general principle: naming ambiguities resolved, where possible, by looking at the domain. It’s what’s been done with Martinez (Harvey).

[jdaw1]

• “Quinta das Licieras”? Not well known to google.

I have 24 x 375ml and 1 x 750ml bottles to prove existence. It belongs to the owners of Quinta da Romaniera. Apologies, the proper spelling is Liceiras. Here is a picture of their Ruby. The VP has a green label with gold writing, which is too awful to show on a public forum.

Please hold your nose and show it: we are choosing names here, and the bottle of VP is the natural place to start.

[jdaw1]

• “Quinta das Carvalhas” or “Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas;”? It appears on the RO website at www.realcompanhiavelha.pt/i_vp.cfm?s=4&ss=13.

Additionally, I think that before finalising the list we should wait for AHB to wade through this long thread. He will have stuff to say and corrections to make.

[DRT]

I emailed C da Silva for clarification of their brands.

Carvalhas definately belongs to Royal Oporto. It is the largest Quinta in the Pinhao area and is locally known as Royal Oporto's Mountain.

Will photograph QdL label and post it shortly.

Derek

[jdaw1]

• “Champalimaud” or “Champalimaud Quinta do Côtto”? (Declared 2001.) I prefer the shorter name.

[jdaw1]

• “A Pinta dos Santos”?

Yes, but A. Pinta dos Santos may be more accurate.

Source please.

Described by Suckling as "the weakest of the vintage ports produced by the Barros, Almeida group"

My list also has a port “Pintas”, from this TN. Does “A. Pinta dos Santos” = “Pintas”?

[DRT]

• “Champalimaud” or “Champalimaud Quinta do Côtto”? (Declared 2001.) I prefer the shorter name.

Suckling's book contains an image of the label of the 1982. The main label text states Champalimaud 1982 Porto Vintage. In smaller text with double curly quotation marks it says Colheita de vinho da "QUINTA DO COTTO"

In the interest of consistency I think the longer name should be used as it is a Single Quinta wine.

Derek

[DRT]

• “A Pinta dos Santos”?

Yes, but A. Pinta dos Santos may be more accurate.

Source please.

Described by Suckling as "the weakest of the vintage ports produced by the Barros, Almeida group"

My list also has a port “Pintas”, from this TN. Does “A. Pinta dos Santos” = “Pintas”?

No. Pintas is owned by Wine & Soul Lda and have only existed since 2001.

[jdaw1]

• “Van Zeller”?

This is the name of the family that once owned Quinta do Noval. Their influence in the Douro seems to have been extensive for decades and it seems the name has been used on different wines from different places at different times. Suggest we leave it in.

Is Van Zeller the same as JMF & Van Zeller? Have there been previous and different Van Zeller ports, that should be distinguished from this new partnership?

[jdaw1]

• “A Pinta dos Santos”?

Yes, but A. Pinta dos Santos may be more accurate.

Source please.

Described by Suckling as "the weakest of the vintage ports produced by the Barros, Almeida group"

My list also has a port “Pintas”, from this TN. Does “A. Pinta dos Santos” = “Pintas”?

No. Pintas is owned by Wine & Soul Lda and have only existed since 2001.

OK. But google finds not a single reference to "A. Pinta dos Santos", which is a mite disconcerting. And it doesn’t obviously appear on www.porto-barros.pt.