Shipper Abbreviations

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AHB
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Shipper Abbreviations

Post by AHB » 11:26 Wed 28 Dec 2011

There are two producers who have an obvious abbreviation of RV, those being Real Vinicola and Rebello Valente. Do we already have in place a commonly used abbreviation for these two producers? If so, what is it?
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by DRT » 12:41 Wed 28 Dec 2011

The list posted here uses RV for Rebello Valente but does not have an entry for Real Vinicola. This is perhaps because Real Vinicola is simply a brand name used by Royal Oporto, for which the abbreviation is RO?
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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by AHB » 13:35 Wed 28 Dec 2011

I'm happy to use RV as the abbreviation for Rebello Valente.

But I'm not sure I buy the argument that Real Vinicola is only a brand name used by Royal Oporto and therefore should use an abbreviation of RO. Following this argument would mean that we abandon the differentiation between, say, Graham, Dow, Warre etc on the basis that they are all brand names of Symington Family Estates and should therefore all share an abbreviation of SFE.

Not making any distinction between Royal Oporto, Quinta das Carvalhas, Real Vinicola and Real Companhia Velha del Norte (or whatever the last one should be) also robs us of the opportunity to test whether these are different blends or simply the same wine with a different label.

So I argue against the discrimination that requires all Royal Oporto Group ports to be abbreviated as RO and for a distinction between them!!

How about:
Royal Oporto - RO
Quinta das Carvalhas - ROc
Real Vinicola - ROv
Real Compania Velha del Norte - ROn
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by DRT » 14:05 Wed 28 Dec 2011

Don't shoot the messenger! :wink:

I have no responsibility for the list of standard abbreviations so you will have to present your case to our local ISO Accreditor.
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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by AHB » 14:33 Wed 28 Dec 2011

DRT wrote:Don't shoot the messenger! :wink:

I have no responsibility for the list of standard abbreviations so you will have to present your case to our local ISO Accreditor.
He seems to be busy organising offlines and therefore distracted for the moment. I'll take this opportunity to also point out that the ISO standard abbreviation for Cockburn is wrong and should be Ck, not C :roll:
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 14:49 Wed 28 Dec 2011

AHB wrote: Royal Oporto - RO
Quinta das Carvalhas - ROc
Real Vinicola - ROv
Real Compania Velha del Norte - ROn
In general, big words in names of things (‟da” ∉ big) are capitalised. So Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas should be ROC. My memory, rather vague today, thinks that I have used exactly this abbreviation for this. Also very content with RON.

But is there any difference between Royal Oporto and Real Vinicola? I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that one was the customary English name and the other the customary Portuguese name for the same company. If one name implies this-quinta-not-that, and the other name does not, then different abbreviations should be used. Guidance welcomed.

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 14:51 Wed 28 Dec 2011

AHB wrote:Cockburn is wrong and should be Ck, not C :roll:
I am exerting a little parental authority here: no. Cockburn had a century of being the most prestigious and highly-priced port, and for that reason is awarded the single letter. The records are very clear about the former (and perhaps future) relative prestige of this name.

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by AHB » 20:19 Wed 28 Dec 2011

jdaw1 wrote:But is there any difference between Royal Oporto and Real Vinicola? I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that one was the customary English name and the other the customary Portuguese name for the same company. If one name implies this-quinta-not-that, and the other name does not, then different abbreviations should be used. Guidance welcomed.
I honestly don't know whether there is a difference in blends or grapes between these two labels, but I have seen the same vintage bottled under both labels. I don't know whether this is a marketing difference (cif. Dalva and Presidential) or a compositional difference (cif. Warre and Dow). Does anyone have a contact in the company who might be able to help us?
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 20:50 Wed 28 Dec 2011

AHB wrote:whether this is a marketing difference (cif. Dalva and Presidential) or a compositional difference (cif. Warre and Dow).
I agree that the implied question is the correct test.

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by DRT » 22:07 Wed 28 Dec 2011

jdaw1 wrote:
AHB wrote:Cockburn is wrong and should be Ck, not C :roll:
I am exerting a little parental authority here: no. Cockburn had a century of being the most prestigious and highly-priced port, and for that reason is awarded the single letter. The records are very clear about the former (and perhaps future) relative prestige of this name.
I have previously challenged this but conceded and agreed it was appropriate. However, there is now new evidence that should perhaps cause a re-think.

When visiting my local Tesco today I saw a large number of bottles of Cockburn Special Reserve on the shelf. Each bottle had a plastic neck tag, similar to the old style cellar tags which slip around the neck of a horizontal bottle upon which the name of the wine would be written. These labels something like this printed on them...

COCKBURN
WE'RE BA
CK


This makes me think that the Symingtons are using CK as an abbreviation for their newly acquired company. Perhaps we should do the same to avoid confusion in years to come?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 22:29 Wed 28 Dec 2011

I”m not entirely happy with basing my system on CSR (compare: CkSR), but I am willing to consider giving the Symingtons a limited choice: C, or Ck (lower-case ‘k’). No other shipper has been given any choice: are we happy with this?

And if the Syms choose Ck, should the next-most-important C!, Croft, be offered the C?

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by DRT » 22:36 Wed 28 Dec 2011

I am not suggesting giving any shipper a choice or any preferential treatment. What we use should be intuitive and logical, whether the shippers would have chosen the same abbreviation is somewhat irrelevant as 99% of them haven't chosen one. This is an exception as it appears to me that the Symington marketing team have hooked onto CK as being an abbreviation for the name of the house. If that last the test of time it will come into common usage amongst port drinkers and our "C" will seem illogical and potentially confusing.
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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by AHB » 22:51 Wed 28 Dec 2011

I use Ck as the abbreviation in my notes and cellar records, purely as - to me - it seems to be the intuitive (and somewhat ironic given that the ck is silent) abbreviation of Cockburn.
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by RAYC » 00:16 Thu 29 Dec 2011

jdaw1 wrote:And if the Syms choose Ck, should the next-most-important C!, Croft, be offered the C?
My vote is for use of Ck and Cr, as they are unambiguous. F, G, D, T, W - everyone knows who you are talking about. But there seems to be scope for confusion when using "C" alone.
Rob C.

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 00:22 Thu 29 Dec 2011

RAYC wrote:My vote is for use of Ck and Cr, as they are unambiguous. F, G, D, T, W - everyone knows who you are talking about. But there seems to be scope for confusion when using "C" alone.
D = Delaforce or Dow?

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by RAYC » 00:24 Thu 29 Dec 2011

jdaw1 wrote:
RAYC wrote:My vote is for use of Ck and Cr, as they are unambiguous. F, G, D, T, W - everyone knows who you are talking about. But there seems to be scope for confusion when using "C" alone.
D = Delaforce or Dow?
Dow, as i would guess the vast majority would also assume due to their relative prominence in people's awareness! Croft and Cockburn - tough call, for me at least (having tried only a very limited number of pre-60 bottles of either)
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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 10:08 Thu 29 Dec 2011

RAYC wrote:relative prominence
Cockburn was, from the mid eighteen hundreds until after WW2, The Shipper. Cockburn, then Taylor, then the rest.

I understand the amnesia of today’s youth, who, deprived of a grammar-school education by KGB agent Barbara Castle, have no sense of history, a youth who live in an immediate present with no sense of a past stretching behind nor a future ahead. But do we, members of TPF, need to have our labelling of the world shaped by such a Soviet victory? Absolutely not.

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by DRT » 13:13 Thu 29 Dec 2011

jdaw1 wrote:
RAYC wrote:relative prominence
Cockburn was, from the mid eighteen hundreds until after WW2, The Shipper. Cockburn, then Taylor, then the rest.

I understand the amnesia of today’s youth, who, deprived of a grammar-school education by KGB agent Barbara Castle, have no sense of history, a youth who live in an immediate present with no sense of a past stretching behind nor a future ahead. But do we, members of TPF, need to have our labelling of the world shaped by such a Soviet victory? Absolutely not.
Very persuasive.
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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by RAYC » 15:41 Thu 29 Dec 2011

jdaw1 wrote:Cockburn was, from the mid eighteen hundreds until after WW2, The Shipper. Cockburn, then Taylor, then the rest.

I understand the amnesia of today’s youth, who, deprived of a grammar-school education by KGB agent Barbara Castle, have no sense of history, a youth who live in an immediate present with no sense of a past stretching behind nor a future ahead. But do we, members of TPF, need to have our labelling of the world shaped by such a Soviet victory? Absolutely not.
Croft took its name in 1736. Cockburn did not even exist for the first 79 or so years that it was shipped as such.
Rob C.

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 15:49 Thu 29 Dec 2011

RAYC wrote:relative prominence
RAYC wrote:Croft took its name in 1736. Cockburn did not even exist for the first 79 or so years that it was shipped as such.
Do you want prominence or order of foundation? Or whichever suits your particular desires at that moment?

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by RAYC » 16:06 Thu 29 Dec 2011

jdaw1 wrote:
RAYC wrote:relative prominence
RAYC wrote:Croft took its name in 1736. Cockburn did not even exist for the first 79 or so years that it was shipped as such.
Do you want prominence or order of foundation? Or whichever suits your particular desires at that moment?
I prefer relative current prominence.

But you were making reference to the historical perspective ("Back in my day" etc.). I was merely pointing out that there is more than one side to that argument! :wink:
Rob C.

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 16:34 Thu 29 Dec 2011

jdaw1 wrote:
RAYC wrote:My vote is for use of Ck and Cr, as they are unambiguous. F, G, D, T, W - everyone knows who you are talking about. But there seems to be scope for confusion when using "C" alone.
D = Delaforce or Dow?
or Dalva, and F could theoretically be Fonseca or Ferreira etc.
I would have expected the current most well known to be the first entered into such a list and therefore to get the single letters; the definition of well-known being arguable, but at least F,G,T,D, possibly others. I would then have used the actual shippers second letter in addition either for the original and subsequent, or just for the subsequent e.g. Co, Cr and Ch, only using an alternate second such as Ck if needed for disambiguation to keep the abbreviation short (if we had shippers called Cobalt and Cockburn and C was already used, for example).

Fundamentally though, it's probably a case of "first in gets the most obvious abbreviations" since that avoids changing already entered and referenced information. I wonder what we would use (given QdN already used) if a new house called "Quinta da Nalva" started releasing VP.... though I'm sure we'd manage.

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by DRT » 17:51 Thu 29 Dec 2011

PhilW wrote:I wonder what we would use (given QdN already used) if a new house called "Quinta da Nalva" started releasing VP.... though I'm sure we'd manage.
That's easy. We would use whatever Julian decides. Given the number of abbreviations he (alone) has already come up with, it is difficult to fault or criticise his logic.

We have questioned the use of "C" here and met with resistance and logical argument. I vote to give in and keep Cockburn as "C". Principally because of this!
PhilW wrote:since that avoids changing already entered and referenced information.
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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 18:08 Thu 29 Dec 2011

PhilW wrote:Fonseca or Ferreira
A good test of those proposing giving priority by date of start of the business.

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Re: Shipper Abbreviations

Post by Cynthia J » 11:44 Fri 30 Dec 2011

Hello boys...!!! Thank you Julian for drawing my attention to this thread...

Me, I would vote for Ck - as Derek so rightly points out, the new Cockburn's branding and marketing play with the "ck", stressing the need to pronounce responsibly!! No other port brand has quite this issue with their consonants I think, so Ck could only be Cockburn's in most people's minds, I think!

And if this discussion gets way too heated and you all to need to stop for a chuckle, I will leave you with this...
http://youtu.be/rsl1zCyJ370

Happy New Year!

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