Selo de garantia

[RAYC]

I have been hunting the IDVP site to see if i could find something official on what the selo de garantia actually guarantees.

If anyone knows the official/authoritative source for what the guarantee means, i would be very grateful for a link!

[Glenn E.]

I think it only "guarantees" that the Port meets/follows the IVDP's regulations. It is most definitely not a quality guarantee.

[RAYC]

I think it only "guarantees" that the Port meets/follows the IVDP's regulations.

Which, for instance, is materially different from what Roy states that it guarantees:

It assures the consumer that the contents of the bottle came from the demarcated Douro region in Portugal.

And I have come across other statements elsewhere that seem to imply different meanings to the guarantee

Hence why i was looking for the official source/statement of what the guarantee actually does!

[Glenn E.]

I think it only "guarantees" that the Port meets/follows the IVDP's regulations.

Which, for instance, is materially different from what Roy states that it guarantees:

It assures the consumer that the contents of the bottle came from the demarcated Douro region in Portugal.

Not really - Roy's statement is a subset of mine. One of the IVDP's regulations is that Port must come from the demarcated Douro region in Portugal.

But... no, I don't have an official source or link to the actual regulation(s) other than just using the IVDP web site.

[RAYC]

I think it only "guarantees" that the Port meets/follows the IVDP's regulations.

Which, for instance, is materially different from what Roy states that it guarantees:

It assures the consumer that the contents of the bottle came from the demarcated Douro region in Portugal.

Not really - Roy's statement is a subset of mine. One of the IVDP's regulations is that Port must come from the demarcated Douro region in Portugal.

But... no, I don't have an official source or link to the actual regulation(s) other than just using the IVDP web site.

So...it is a guarantee that the contents of the bottle must come from the demarcated Douro region in Portugal, despite the fact that approx 16.5% of the contents do not actually come from there...?

[DRT]

I think Glenn's statement is correct. Trying to drill into the detail using paraphrasing of the individual regulations out of context rather that the regulations themselves is unlikely to be profitable.

If we take Glenn's definition:

it "guarantees" that the Port meets/follows the IVDP's regulations.

...and then acknowledge that in order to fall within that definition a wine must have been:

>> made using grapes of allowable varieties grown in the appropriate place
>> made using spirit that meets the regulations
>> treated and aged in accordance with one of the permitted styles
>> approved by the IVDP if necessary (depending on style)
>> labelled and described in accordance with the regulations governing the particular style

...then I think we have an understandable definition.

In the case of VP, I think it should actually be capable of being relied upon as a quality guarantee given that the wines must pass a quality test prior to being bottled and released for sale. Unfortunately, there is so much mystery around that process, and so many inexplicable anomalies, that no one could actually rely on such a guarantee unless the quality benchmark was exceedingly low.

[RAYC]

Yes - you are drawing some of the reasons i asked this question.

I do agree that Glen's summary is the most plausible of the ones i have read - i just could not find a direct statement on the IDVP website about it so wondered whether there was one.

In particular because it does seem to be a murky concept - in a lot of places, the assumption given is that the guarantee means that the Port is exlusively from the Douro region (eg: even on the IDVP-sponsored Center for Wine Origins site). And because of the aguardente, i do not believe that anyone could say that this is strictly correct.

Likewise, although there are many statements that it is not a guarantee of quality, as you say some of the IDVP regulations impose a quality test. So for some styles (eg: VP) it is a guarantee that the wine has been approved by the IDVP as meeting a certain quality...but not a guarantee of quality per se...!

Hence the desire to go to source rather than speculation!

[DRT]

If you read the introduction to Roy's article on the subject you will quickly realise that there is no official definition of what the selo actually means.

This is an unfortunate, but typical, useless attribute of the governance of the port trade.

[DRT]

As for the aguardente question, my view is that this is a non-issue. At no time in history has it been the case that the aguardente used to fortify the wines of the Douro region have had to come from within the region. In fact, according to a number of producers I have spoken to, it is apparently not viable to do so on a commercial basis. Port has always been fortified with spirit from other regions/countries and I think most people who know anything about Port and how it is made will know that. If the IVDP had a regulation which said that 100% of the contents of Port wine had to come from within the demarcated region then there would be an issue. But the regulations don't say that, so I don't think there is an issue. The issue that you are highlighting is an issue of inappropriate and confusing paraphrasing of the regulations. Unfortunately, the Regulator is contributing to the confusion

[RAYC]

there is no official definition of what the selo actually means.

ok - this is interesting and i had not appreciated the fact - thanks! This is all i was really trying to confirm on this thread

As for the aguardente question, my view is that this is a non-issue....If the IVDP had a regulation which said that 100% of the contents of Port wine had to come from within the demarcated region then there would be an issue. But the regulations don't say that, so I don't think there is an issue. The issue that you are highlighting is an issue of inappropriate and confusing paraphrasing of the regulations. Unfortunately, the Regulator is contributing to the confusion

Sorry - i never meant to give the impression that the use of non-Douro aguardente was an issue in terms of the regulations - it is quite clearly not (and my comments should not be interpreted as such).

But on the marketing side, i do see that there's a slight conundrum if the wine is presented as being 100% from the Douro region. Or, for instance, made exclusively from grapes from a single vineyard or even from a single harvest. Not one that bothers me, of course, but one that piqued my interest on a slow work day!

The aguardente conundrum does also lead to all sorts of other marketing-related questions - for instance, do IDVP approve a special batch of organic-certified aguardente to use in organic ports?!

[DRT]

one that piqued my interest on a slow work day!

Another thread did make me think that you were not entirely stretched by your employer today

[RAYC]

one that piqued my interest on a slow work day!

Another thread did make me think that you were not entirely stretched by your employer today

Yes - if only i had brought the backlog of TNs in with me...

[Glenn E.]

As for the aguardente question, my view is that this is a non-issue. At no time in history has it been the case that the aguardente used to fortify the wines of the Douro region have had to come from within the region.

In fact I think that the original requirement was that it NOT come from the Douro region. This was put in as a bit of appeasement to the growers whose vineyards were outside of the newly minted region and who were suddenly being excluded from making a product that they were used to making.

[Glenn E.]

But on the marketing side, i do see that there's a slight conundrum if the wine is presented as being 100% from the Douro region.

Port has other problems along those lines, the most blatant being that "10 Year Old Tawny Port" is not 10 years old, nor is it at least 10 years old, nor does it even average 10 years old. A 10 Year Old Tawny Port has merely been judged to meet the IVDP's profile of what a 10-yr old tawny Port should taste like.

Granted, most if not all are at least 10 years old on average, but to meet US law it's supposed to be a requirement. (In fact I think that the contents must be 100% at least 10 years old, not just an average, but I wouldn't swear to that.) I'm not quite sure how the Port industry manages to get the labeling of tawnies with an indication of age through US customs law.

[Andy Velebil]

In the old days, a producer had to buy their aguardente from the (then called) IVP. Not the best of ideas as the aguardente scandal of the early 1970's can attest to A producer can now buy aguardente from whatever supplier he/she want to, so long as it conforms to IVDP rules. Whatever aguardente you use, it has to be approved by the IVDP. Anyone who's been to the Douro will notice the tanks holding the aguardente are sealed by the IVDP.

DRT is correct, it is not viable from a cost perspective to make aguardente in the Douro. The sole processing plant near Naples is now closed and out of business.

[JacobH]

In the old days, a producer had to buy their aguardente from the (then called) IVP. Not the best of ideas as the aguardente scandal of the early 1970's can attest to A producer can now buy aguardente from whatever supplier he/she want to, so long as it conforms to IVDP rules. Whatever aguardente you use, it has to be approved by the IVDP. Anyone who's been to the Douro will notice the tanks holding the aguardente are sealed by the IVDP.

Do you have a photo of the tanks? I haven’t noticed them (though I guess I haven’t been looking) and have been wondering what they look like!

It must be a good thing that more effort is being put into the aguardente these days considering what a large component of the wine it makes up. Though I’d be interested in finding out how many shippers do proper tasting and experiments. I remember Oscar Quevedo saying that they do blind tasting of just the aguaradente (mixed with water!) but I wonder if any others have library blends where the same must has been fortified with different aguardente to see what effect it has on the flavour over time?

DRT is correct, it is not viable from a cost perspective to make aguardente in the Douro. The sole processing plant near Naples is now closed and out of business.

Does that mean no-one is producing a Douro aguardente for drinking purposes? Although I’ve never tried it, I’ve seen that for sale a few times and I think Niepoort used to sell it commercially.

But on the marketing side, i do see that there's a slight conundrum if the wine is presented as being 100% from the Douro region.

Granted, most if not all are at least 10 years old on average, but to meet US law it's supposed to be a requirement. (In fact I think that the contents must be 100% at least 10 years old, not just an average, but I wouldn't swear to that.) I'm not quite sure how the Port industry manages to get the labeling of tawnies with an indication of age through US customs law.

It’s particularly odd considering that 40-year-olds are sold as “At least 40 years old” everywhere except the States, apparently to comply with American labelling laws! It’s a bit like saying New Zealand Pinot Noir can be sold as “Beaujolais” but not “Burgundy”...

[g-man]

If I were a wine maker, I 'd personally not even bother with Aguarmente for some of my non VP lines.

It adds a bit of inconsistentcy and wasted time in having to wait for a harvest, maturation and storing.

I personally would just contact my local Dupont and ask if they could ship me xxx tons of pure ethanol and cut it with water as I see fit.

certainly much cheaper considering that none of my tawnies or rubies have a selo.

I do like the fact though, that the selo can help the producer track down if a bottle is legit or not.

[DRT]

none of my tawnies or rubies have a selo.

Are these new bottles? If so, they should definitely have a selo otherwise they are possibly fake.

...and it is not permissable to fortify Port with anything other than distilled grape spirit - i.e. aguardente. The producers don't have the choice to use any other form of spirit.

[Andy Velebil]

Jacob,
To here are some replies...

Do you have a photo of the tanks? I haven’t noticed them (though I guess I haven’t been looking) and have been wondering what they look like!

I checked my pics and I don't see one. Sorry.

It must be a good thing that more effort is being put into the aguardente these days considering what a large component of the wine it makes up. Though I’d be interested in finding out how many shippers do proper tasting and experiments.

All the producers I've spoken to test or evaluate the Aguardente they use in some way.

Does that mean no-one is producing a Douro aguardente for drinking purposes? Although I’ve never tried it, I’ve seen that for sale a few times and I think Niepoort used to sell it commercially.

I was told last October that there is no aguadente being produced in the Douro anymore, as the sole remaining processing plant west of Quinta d. Napoles closed. I was told it isn't cost effective to do it in the Douro. From a historical perspective, many producers made their own from small stills on the Quinta. IIRC, you can still see the original stills used by Vista Allegre and Quinta da Gaivosa, which they have on display.

I was told that it is illegal to make your own aguardente now days. Of course, I don't know if that only applies to using said home-distilled aguardente to fortify Port or is illegal in general overall. I will have to check on that.

[g-man]

none of my tawnies or rubies have a selo.

Are these new bottles? If so, they should definitely have a selo otherwise they are possibly fake.

...and it is not permissable to fortify Port with anything other than distilled grape spirit - i.e. aguardente. The producers don't have the choice to use any other form of spirit.

We can call it whatever we want, but it's really all ethanol, rather dated rule considering they don't even make the stuff within the country.

It might have been my poor recolection as I may have thrown them out of the 6 standing bottles I have open

[Roy Hersh]

We can call it whatever we want, but it's really all ethanol, rather dated rule considering they don't even make the stuff within the country.

False.

Fact: there is aguardente produced in Portugal.

I have tasted nicely aged aguardente made in the South of Portugal while in Santarem last May, as well as 80 and 100 year old bottles of aguardente that were produced in the Douro, (tasted after dinner at Aquapura in the Douro) fantastic drinks that reminded me of the finest sipping Tequilas. I have also seen but not tasted, single vintage aguardente produced up in the Vinho Verde region at one of the properties I've visited there.

To clarify some points from above:

a. Aguardente does have to be approved by the IVDP before being used in the production of Port

b. Most aguardente today comes from the southern regions of Spain and France.

c. Not long ago, after some rules were changed under the IVP, a trade-based consortium was set up to collaboratively procure high quality well-priced aguardente. This was successful for a number of years but sadly the effort imploded (and I'll say no more about that. : )

d. There have been times in history where the aguardente for Port HAD TO BE purchased directly from Portuguese governmental through their appointed representatives.

e. The guarantees prescribed by the Selo da Garantia is loosely defined, and I don't believe my article says anything different than that.

f. The seven person tasting panel tastes all Port to check for organoleptic typicity and must pass tests of smell, coloration (chromatography is used), and taste.

g. Douro wine even with DOC on the label, can be produced without a Selo. Port can not.

[g-man]

Just to be sure,

are you implying Roy, that the aguarmente utilized would be noticeable in something like a tawny that see's so much wood time anyway?

Would it not be better for the customer and the producer if they are able to source one component of their drink for cheaper esp if the producer passes the savings onto the customer?

Imagine a tyalor 20 year tawny that goes for 30$ instead of 40$.

that would be good in my opinion

[Roy Hersh]

are you implying Roy, that the aguarmente utilized would be noticeable in something like a tawny that see's so much wood time anyway?

I am sorry, I don't see how you can draw the conclusion from anything in my last post that I was implying that whatsoever.

But for the record, the difference between a high quality aguardente and cheap/poorly made aguardente can absolutely be tasted in ANY kind of Port, but that doesn't mean it necessarily will be ... just that the type of Port has no bearing on its ability to be perceived. When a Port gives off a spirituous aroma or tastes very warm or hot ... it MAY be due to crappy aguardente. The opposite is true of a seamless and smooth Port which is made better by high quality aguardente. To see the difference go into a Gaia tasting room and taste different batches. I've done this several times (permitted by producers) and it is very telling.

Would it not be better for the customer and the producer if they are able to source one component of their drink for cheaper esp if the producer passes the savings onto the customer?

Yes, but cheaper is not typically better when it comes to aguardente. The price differential is not that dramatic when figuring in the 4:1 ratio used for fortification. So savings may be of consequence to the producer but won't translate to much $avings by the time the finished product reaches the consumer level.

Imagine a tyalor 20 year tawny that goes for 30$ instead of 40$.

Yes, that is a nice fantasy. The savings realized by any scheme to purchase aguardente is not going to make anywhere near that type of difference. I realize if one has not been involved in the economics of Port, close up, that they may just misconstrue the realities of how things work on a tangible level, vs. what "seems to make sense." Please know this is NOT said, trying to be condescending, but in clarification of the above noted prices you mentioned.

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that would be good in my opinion

Yes, it would be very nice to be able to go back to the prices I paid in the late 1980's and early 1990's too.

[Andy Velebil]

Would it not be better for the customer and the producer if they are able to source one component of their drink for cheaper esp if the producer passes the savings onto the customer?

Yes, but cheaper is not typically better when it comes to aguardente. The price differential is not that dramatic when figuring in the 4:1 ratio used for fortification. So savings may be of consequence to the producer but won't translate to much $avings by the time the finished product reaches the consumer level.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying the price differences of cheap versus top quality aguardente isn't enough to warrant a price differential at retail? Because that is in stark contrast to what many producers have told me. A good case in point is why Croft Pink was and is so expensive. After trials they ended up having to use the same top quality aguardente they use for their VP, which drove the costs up both at wholesale and then of course at retail level.

[g-man]

are you implying Roy, that the aguarmente utilized would be noticeable in something like a tawny that see's so much wood time anyway?

I am sorry, I don't see how you can draw the conclusion from anything in my last post that I was implying that whatsoever.

But for the record, the difference between a high quality aguardente and cheap/poorly made aguardente can absolutely be tasted in ANY kind of Port, but that doesn't mean it necessarily will be ... just that the type of Port has no bearing on its ability to be perceived. When a Port gives off a spirituous aroma or tastes very warm or hot ... it MAY be due to crappy aguardente. The opposite is true of a seamless and smooth Port which is made better by high quality aguardente. To see the difference go into a Gaia tasting room and taste different batches. I've done this several times (permitted by producers) and it is very telling.

I'd have to throw the BS flag on this one. While I don't question your tasting skills, but I'd be very surprised that if ethanol is cut properly with water and sugars and then aged in wood for >10 years, anyone would be very very hard pressed to taste the difference.

Now if you took adulterated alcohol that someone already has inserted XXX into it, fine I don't know what the original Aguardente would have tasted like so wouldn't be able to make that judgment and it might POSSIBLY affect the taste on a young batch of wines. But again, if it were a 10 yr tawny, I'd still be very suspicious of anyone claiming the ability to differentiate between a "high quality" aguardente vs a "low quality" one vs pure ethanol that's cut to match the ABV.