Large bottle sizes: a campaign
Large bottle sizes: a campaign
The IVDP prohibits the sale of port in sizes larger than magnum. This rule is manifestly silly: there are larger bottles than I want to buy; that the port makers want to sell; but sale isn’t allowed. Nuts!
So yesterday I started a campaign to get this rule changed. If you are willing to help, or might be willing to help, please say so in this thread, and if I don’t already have it PM me your email address.
I really do think that I might have found the IVDP’s weak spot.
So yesterday I started a campaign to get this rule changed. If you are willing to help, or might be willing to help, please say so in this thread, and if I don’t already have it PM me your email address.
I really do think that I might have found the IVDP’s weak spot.
- Alex Bridgeman
- Graham’s 1948
- Posts: 14879
- Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
- Location: Berkshire, UK
Although I have little personal interest in buying larger format bottles (except for a Nebuchadnezzar of 1896 we know of in London), I do think that the rule is eccentric in the extreme. I would be willing to support a campaign to change such a rule just on the principles of supporting free trade.
Alex
Alex
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
- uncle tom
- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
- Posts: 3518
- Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
- Location: Near Saffron Walden, England
Julian,
If I recall correctly, when you were last in communication with someone in VNG, they responded by giving you a list of approved bottle sizes that went up to 300cl - which is a double magnum..
..or is the heat getting to me..?
Tom
If I recall correctly, when you were last in communication with someone in VNG, they responded by giving you a list of approved bottle sizes that went up to 300cl - which is a double magnum..
..or is the heat getting to me..?
Tom
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
- mosesbotbol
- Warre’s Otima 10 year old Tawny
- Posts: 598
- Joined: 19:54 Wed 18 Jul 2007
- Location: Boston, USA
You have email containing the secret plans.
You have email containing the secret plans.
The IVDP prohibition is on sizes above 1.5L. Magnums allowed; tregnums and double-magnums not. But phrasing a bit messy:
The IVDP prohibition is on sizes above 1.5L. Magnums allowed; tregnums and double-magnums not. But phrasing a bit messy:
By email somebody to jdaw1 wrote:Current legislation (as of 2006) states that for commercial purposes, only glass bottles with the following capacities in centiliters are allowed: 5 thru 10, 20, 37.5, 50, 75, 100 or 150; with exception of colheitas, Crusted, Late bottled vintage e Vintage, which can be bottled in 300 cl.
- RonnieRoots
- Fonseca 1980
- Posts: 1981
- Joined: 08:28 Thu 21 Jun 2007
- Location: Middle Earth
told verbally that magnums are the largest allowed
I have been told verbally (not in writing) that magnums are the largest allowed. And what about an Imperial? (There are Imperials I want to buy. I am willing to pay money. They aren’t allowed to sell.)
- uncle tom
- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
- Posts: 3518
- Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
- Location: Near Saffron Walden, England
Double magnums are handsome bottles that you could decant without too much difficulty, whereas imperials would be just a little too heavy. The occasions when an imperial could be deployed are also few and far between.
I've thought before that getting a limited edition bottling of double mags - maybe 100, with numbered labels and individual cases - would be an interesting exercise.
As this only needs the co-operation of a shipper, rather than a battle royal with the IVDP, this would seem a better avenue to pursue!
Tom
I've thought before that getting a limited edition bottling of double mags - maybe 100, with numbered labels and individual cases - would be an interesting exercise.
As this only needs the co-operation of a shipper, rather than a battle royal with the IVDP, this would seem a better avenue to pursue!
Tom
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
- Axel P
- Taylor Quinta de Vargellas 1987
- Posts: 2027
- Joined: 08:09 Wed 12 Sep 2007
- Location: Langenfeld, near Cologne, Germany
- Contact:
Julian,
as an MBA I strongly believe in the market and would allow everything to be sold which would be bought (maybe I would restrict drugs and firearms).
So: what is the point of the IVDP? Wouldn't it be an outstanding PR to open e.g. a Dows 1896 Nebukadnezar (which I know you are still thinking of) with a pic in the net and lot of Port-lovers around it.
Forget silly restrictions. Germany has way too many and look where it got us. Viva free markets!
Axel
as an MBA I strongly believe in the market and would allow everything to be sold which would be bought (maybe I would restrict drugs and firearms).
So: what is the point of the IVDP? Wouldn't it be an outstanding PR to open e.g. a Dows 1896 Nebukadnezar (which I know you are still thinking of) with a pic in the net and lot of Port-lovers around it.
Forget silly restrictions. Germany has way too many and look where it got us. Viva free markets!
Axel
worldofport.com
o-port-unidade.com
o-port-unidade.com
- KillerB
- Taylor Quinta de Vargellas 1987
- Posts: 2425
- Joined: 22:09 Wed 20 Jun 2007
- Location: Sky Blue City, England
Having opened and poured two Methusela (6l) of Champagne I can say categorically that it is possible but gets tiring after a while. Anything bigger than that will require two people to pour and most of the time you would with the Methulsela.
Thus my recommendation for maximum size is 6 litres, but can see no reason why larger ones couldn't be made if the Quinta wanted. Magnums (Magna? Apparently not) are great but even bigger would be even better.
Thus my recommendation for maximum size is 6 litres, but can see no reason why larger ones couldn't be made if the Quinta wanted. Magnums (Magna? Apparently not) are great but even bigger would be even better.
Port is basically a red drink
-
- Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
- Posts: 3028
- Joined: 22:16 Mon 25 Jun 2007
- Location: Los Angeles, Ca USA
- Contact:
My understanding, and what I've been told, is producers cannot SELL any Vintage Port in anything larger than a magnum.
However, they can (and do) bottle larger formats that are given away as gifts (The 3L of Sandeman Vau Vintage most recently comes to mind). I've seen plenty of double mags and some larger formats in the producers cellars, so they do exist in extremely small quantities.
However, they can (and do) bottle larger formats that are given away as gifts (The 3L of Sandeman Vau Vintage most recently comes to mind). I've seen plenty of double mags and some larger formats in the producers cellars, so they do exist in extremely small quantities.
Re: Large bottle sizes: a campaign
I might be willing to help you.jdaw1 wrote:If you are willing to help, or might be willing to help, please say so in this thread
Derek
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
- uncle tom
- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
- Posts: 3518
- Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
- Location: Near Saffron Walden, England
OK, an action plan:
1) Double check whether 300cl VP is OK with the IVDP - yes or no?
2) If OK, find friendly producer - probably easier to strike a deal with one of the 'every year a vintage clan' - how about trying the newly independant van Zeller tribe for a special bottling of Q. Roriz??
3) Work out how many takers there might be for a large format bottling, and talk tough on price with the producer.
4) Arrange a special label design, and get it printed in a range of sizes. Order bottles, cases etc. Number lables, and get those for largest formats signed by the winemaker.
5) Get the 2007 vintage wine bottled next year in a full range of formats, 37.5cl through to 300cl, plus a handful of 600cl's to be discreetly tucked in the boot of Julian's car.
6) Ship and distribute.
7) Repeat following year and thereafter.
Tom
1) Double check whether 300cl VP is OK with the IVDP - yes or no?
2) If OK, find friendly producer - probably easier to strike a deal with one of the 'every year a vintage clan' - how about trying the newly independant van Zeller tribe for a special bottling of Q. Roriz??
3) Work out how many takers there might be for a large format bottling, and talk tough on price with the producer.
4) Arrange a special label design, and get it printed in a range of sizes. Order bottles, cases etc. Number lables, and get those for largest formats signed by the winemaker.
5) Get the 2007 vintage wine bottled next year in a full range of formats, 37.5cl through to 300cl, plus a handful of 600cl's to be discreetly tucked in the boot of Julian's car.
6) Ship and distribute.
7) Repeat following year and thereafter.
Tom
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
- uncle tom
- Dalva Golden White Colheita 1952
- Posts: 3518
- Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
- Location: Near Saffron Walden, England
While the assertion that large formats evolve more slowly is often repeated, the science behind the claim seems a tad suspect...
I would love to liberate a set of three mature bottles from VNG - half, bottle and magnum - of the same wine, bottled at the same time, and cellared together - so this mantra can be properly put to the test..
Tom
I would love to liberate a set of three mature bottles from VNG - half, bottle and magnum - of the same wine, bottled at the same time, and cellared together - so this mantra can be properly put to the test..
Tom
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
-
- Fonseca Bin 27
- Posts: 73
- Joined: 07:26 Thu 03 Jan 2008
- Location: poop, Germany
xl: Yes.
UT: Do you propose we plan such a tasting? 37,5 vs. 75 vs. 150 vs. 300 (if avail).
I would certainly petition to the allowance of larger formats if I knew without vagary that in nearly all instances large format bottlings far outpaced the qualities so consistently delivered by what's presently available. Is there already empirical evidence stating or at least suggesting this is the case, or shall we be the first to stage such an evaluation?
Growing more curious by the second...
UT: Do you propose we plan such a tasting? 37,5 vs. 75 vs. 150 vs. 300 (if avail).
I would certainly petition to the allowance of larger formats if I knew without vagary that in nearly all instances large format bottlings far outpaced the qualities so consistently delivered by what's presently available. Is there already empirical evidence stating or at least suggesting this is the case, or shall we be the first to stage such an evaluation?
Growing more curious by the second...
'The quickest way to end world hunger is to make fast food faster.' - William & Harry's Polka-Bot Explosion, Planet Earth's First Touring XBox 360 'Rock Star' Band
It seems we have a supported from within the trade who has very kindly agreed to be quoted as follows:
In an email to me today: Christian Seely, Managing Director of Quinta do Noval wrote:Of course I am in favour of being allowed to put Port into larger formats. If the producer wants to do it, the clients want it, and it is beneficial for the wine (all three of which conditions prevail), there is clearly no reason whatever for it to be forbidden.
When I say it is benefical, obviously I mean that it can help the wine to age for very long periods: we have all come across very old wines that have done better in large formats than in bottles. At any rate, it can certainly do the wine no harm to be in a larger format, and if the winemaker and the winedrinker want it, then it seems quite obvious that it is nobody's business to prevent it.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
Although this is a subject that is not close to my heart, it would seem that we need to find the correct mechanism to ask the IVDP such questions.
They may have reasons, which do not readily spring to mind, as to why they do not allow such large formats to be exported and sold. They may also be able to indicate whether they feel the matter is worthy of revue,etc.
Does anyone know of a procedure? I struggled to find a clue on the English page of the IVDP site.
Alan
They may have reasons, which do not readily spring to mind, as to why they do not allow such large formats to be exported and sold. They may also be able to indicate whether they feel the matter is worthy of revue,etc.
Does anyone know of a procedure? I struggled to find a clue on the English page of the IVDP site.
Alan
Conky: have you requested the secret plan?
Conky: have you requested the secret plan? If not, please do so, because it describes how we might persuade the IVDP.
- Axel P
- Taylor Quinta de Vargellas 1987
- Posts: 2027
- Joined: 08:09 Wed 12 Sep 2007
- Location: Langenfeld, near Cologne, Germany
- Contact:
Concy: http://www.ivdp.pt/index.asp?idioma=1&
or ivdp.pt and klick on the ENGLISH-Button far up left.
I talked to a couple of guys or they mailed me respectively. Bottom line was that in 96 you could register your more than magnum bottles to sell them in the future. Nowadays this is only possible with quite some difficulties from the IVDP. The main argument was that that big bottles seemed to be un-presitigious, I will ask the IVDP in the beginning of March and get back to you.
Axel
or ivdp.pt and klick on the ENGLISH-Button far up left.
I talked to a couple of guys or they mailed me respectively. Bottom line was that in 96 you could register your more than magnum bottles to sell them in the future. Nowadays this is only possible with quite some difficulties from the IVDP. The main argument was that that big bottles seemed to be un-presitigious, I will ask the IVDP in the beginning of March and get back to you.
Axel
worldofport.com
o-port-unidade.com
o-port-unidade.com
- RonnieRoots
- Fonseca 1980
- Posts: 1981
- Joined: 08:28 Thu 21 Jun 2007
- Location: Middle Earth
OK, let me throw in a little bit of controversy. Apart from the fact that the IVDP rules are silly and I agree that the market should dictate whether odd bottle sizes are sold or not, I have my doubts about this campaign.
Should this campaign be succesul, then it would be possible for you to buy the first VP to be released in large bottle formats. Let's just assume it's going to be 2008. As Mr. Seely correctly stated, a vintage port will age slower in large bottle format than in a bottle of regular size. Then the question arises: When are you ever going to drink this 2008? If you consider that many of the ports that are now 30 to 40 years old are still too young, it isn't difficult to imagine that your beautiful, very large bottle of VP will be a child still at that age. I don't know about you guys, but I have no intention whatsoever to spend a lot of money on a port that will certainly outlive me. Regardless of how cool that bottle may look in my cellar.
Now, if the port shippers were willing and able to sell some of those big older bottles that I've seen in a number of lodges.... that would be a completely different story.
Should this campaign be succesul, then it would be possible for you to buy the first VP to be released in large bottle formats. Let's just assume it's going to be 2008. As Mr. Seely correctly stated, a vintage port will age slower in large bottle format than in a bottle of regular size. Then the question arises: When are you ever going to drink this 2008? If you consider that many of the ports that are now 30 to 40 years old are still too young, it isn't difficult to imagine that your beautiful, very large bottle of VP will be a child still at that age. I don't know about you guys, but I have no intention whatsoever to spend a lot of money on a port that will certainly outlive me. Regardless of how cool that bottle may look in my cellar.
Now, if the port shippers were willing and able to sell some of those big older bottles that I've seen in a number of lodges.... that would be a completely different story.