Port brand abbreviations

[jdaw1]

Porto Valriz: ‘Vr’ or ‘Vz’?

[DRT]

Vr

[DRT]

What other Quinta d… V…s might need either of these?

Quinta de Ventozelo.

Already in.

Vz = Quinta de Ventozelo

[jdaw1]

What other Quinta d… V…s might need either of these?

Quinta de Ventozelo.

Already in.

Vz = Quinta de Ventozelo

Oops. {Blushes!}

Vr then.

[jdaw1]

List in first post of this thread, which includes Bb = Broadbent (having consulted with Bartholomew Broadbent).

[DRT]

Suggestion: Lm = Quinta das Lamelas

[jdaw1]

Suggestion: Lm = Quinta das Lamelas

Fine by me.

Also, I for Infantado doesn’t fit the general pattern of reserving the few single-letter names for the few ancient famous blends of large volume and fame. Should it be In or If or It or Id? Unless there’s strong and quick dissent, it’s going to be In.

[DRT]

Suggestion: Lm = Quinta das Lamelas

Fine by me.

Also, I for Infantado doesn’t fit the general pattern of reserving the few single-letter names for the few ancient famous blends of large volume and fame. Should it be In or If or It or Id? Unless there’s strong and quick dissent, it’s going to be In.

In works better than any of those alternatives.

[Doggett]

Io?

[jdaw1]

Io?

No. Consonants give gravitas and structure. Only vowels only when really necessary.

[Glenn E.]

Are Eq and Ec not included because Eufemia doesn't (often? ever?) produce VP?

Question posed primarily due to the unique difficulty with naming the split house(s).

[jdaw1]

Are Eq and Ec not included because Eufemia doesn't (often? ever?) produce VP?

Question posed primarily due to the unique difficulty with naming the split house(s).

As you say: no VP, no need. Do suggest — though it’s too late to go in the canonical list in The Book.

[flash_uk]

Planning for the 1970 Horizontal has revealed a handful of shippers without an agreed abbreviation:
Flagman
Lopes
Maia
Marks & Spencer own selection
Thienpont (Butler Nephew)

As a proposal, how about:
Fl - we already have FM for F Martins
Lp
Mi
MAS
Tp

Thoughts welcome.

[jdaw1]

Marks & Spencer own selection

…

MAS

If M&S is to be as long as three big characters, why not “M&S” (which has precedent)?

Thienpont (Butler Nephew)

What is or was the relationship between BN and Tp (if a stand-alone abbreviation, my preference)?

Flagman

Fg is too near FG. So Fm seems natural, though I could live with Fl.

Lopes

…

Lp

Lp fits the general preference for hard consonants, and is available.

[flash_uk]

If M&S is to be as long as three big characters, why not “M&S” (which has precedent)?

Hadn't realised that "&" was in use. M&S would be fine I think.

What is or was the relationship between BN and Tp (if a stand-alone abbreviation, my preference)?

George Thienpont. Also, a purchase by Gerwin. And by Axel. Perhaps this is simply BN70 bottled by Thienpont, in which case not meriting an abbreviation?

[jdaw1]

What is or was the relationship between BN and Tp (if a stand-alone abbreviation, my preference)?

George Thienpont. Also, a purchase by Gerwin. And by Axel. Perhaps this is simply BN70 bottled by Thienpont, in which case not meriting an abbreviation?

Bottler, so this is BN.

[PhilW]

What is or was the relationship between BN and Tp (if a stand-alone abbreviation, my preference)?

George Thienpont. Also, a purchase by Gerwin. And by Axel. Perhaps this is simply BN70 bottled by Thienpont, in which case not meriting an abbreviation?

Bottler, so this is BN.

Disagree. That same argument would invalidate our use of BBR for their buyer's own brand ("Berry's Own Selection" as opposed to other BBR-bottled wines which identify the producer). The Thienpont label does not list the producer, so this is a buyer's own brand of Thienpont (see Axel's label, with only the cork revealing it to be BN). Tp.

[PhilW]

If M&S is to be as long as three big characters, why not “M&S” (which has precedent)?

Hadn't realised that "&" was in use. M&S would be fine I think.

Am less keen on use of & (we normally drop it elsewhere e.g. BB&R, W&S etc).
Appreciate MS is less clear vs Ms, so MAS or MSp preferred by me (but perhaps only me?).

[PhilW]

Marks & Spencer own selection

Flagman

Fg is too near FG. So Fm seems natural, though I could live with Fl.

Agree Fm is more natural; but if anyone ever brings an "F. Martins" port along (not currently listed in abbreviations either), we won't want to use FM at that stage. I suggest adding both FM for "F. Martins" and therefore Fl for Flagman.

[jdaw1]

Disagree. That same argument would invalidate our use of BBR for their buyer's own brand ("Berry's Own Selection" as opposed to other BBR-bottled wines which identify the producer). The Thienpont label does not list the producer, so this is a buyer's own brand of Thienpont (see Axel's label, with only the cork revealing it to be BN). Tp.

There is a grey region here. There are distinguishing qualities (BBR Ports supplied by, but not necessarily same blend as), but even that is not necessarily always true.

I suspect that I'm giving weight to multiple things. Is it a real Port brand? Likelihood different wine to supplierʼs blend? How often seen — reluctant to waste combinations on a once-off?

But I agree that this isn't a bright line.

[PhilW]

I suspect that I'm giving weight to multiple things. Is it a real Port brand? Likelihood different wine to supplierʼs blend? How often seen — reluctant to waste combinations on a once-off?

I looked at my list of BOBs, and have to admit that I don't know how many may/not be the same or different to suppliers' blends. I suspect they are the same in many cases, but cannot be sure. Also there are several for which I know of only one vintage sold under their own name (which doesn't mean there are not others, just that I'm not aware of them) such as Hedges and Butler - well known bottler for many producers, but I'm only aware of their own brand in '35 (which was Taylor).

Perhaps ad-hoc abbreviation is sufficient for them; Use Tp and M&S on the placemats for now, but don't add them to the canonical list?
Also, perhaps this should be stickied and/or moved to the reference section for easier, er, reference (and move list to first post in thread?).

[flash_uk]

I still haven't found anyone who has the M&S 1970, so it may be it doesn't matter for now about the abbreviation!

[jdaw1]

Perhaps ad-hoc abbreviation is sufficient … but don't add them to the canonical list?

Works for me.

Also, perhaps this should be stickied and/or moved to the reference section for easier, er, reference (and move list to first post in thread?).

Done: moved to the Reference section.

[nac]

Unless I can't see it, the list of abbreviations seems to be missing Churchill's Fojo?

Since it exists - viewtopic.php?p=102031 - should it be ChF?

[jdaw1]

It seems that we lack an abbreviation for Quinta Vale Dona Maria. Any objection to ‘DM’? (Separately, www.quintavaledonamaria.com seems to be not working.)

(Cross link: relevant in the Y2K tasting of 17 March 2020.)

[flash_uk]

It seems that we lack an abbreviation for Quinta Vale Dona Maria. Any objection to ‘DM’? (Separately, www.quintavaledonamaria.com seems to be not working.)

(Cross link: relevant in the Y2K tasting of 17 March 2020.)

I'd be more inclined to VD or VDM.
We already have DB, and DM could be misconstued as another Dow quinta perhaps?

[jdaw1]

But both ‘VD’ and ‘VDM’ could equally be misconstrued as a Vesuvio sub-quinta.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I prefer VDM. Although I take the point that VDM could be construed as a Vesuvio sub-quinta there are no single quinta wines made by Vesuvio whereas there are single quinta wines made by Dow — Bomfim and Senhora da Ribeira being the two current examples.

[flash_uk]

I prefer VDM. Although I take the point that VDM could be construed as a Vesuvio sub-quinta there are no single quinta wines made by Vesuvio whereas there are single quinta wines made by Dow — Bomfim and Senhora da Ribeira being the two current examples.

Yes given Julian’s observation about Vesuvio, VDM would be better as it uses all the letters of the shipper, and it’s more unlikely a Vesuvio off-shoot will appear with initials DM than with D.

[Alex Bridgeman]

DM could, perhaps, cause some confusion by being misconstrued as Dow Malvedos. I'm definitely voting for VDM.

[PhilW]

I'd agree with VDM as most obvious choice, and to my mind no more confusing with potential Vesuvio single quinta as Gould Campbell GC is with potential new Graham's single quinta (i.e. we already cope with this issue). Do we not already have VM for Quinta do Vale Meao anyway?

[flash_uk]

Do we not already have VM for Quinta do Vale Meao anyway?

Yes good spot. It's listed under M alphabetically.
Phil - could you copy the abbreviation list into the first post which you own? Makes it much easier to find!

[jdaw1]

“VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria” added to the official list.

[jdaw1]

Phil - could you copy the abbreviation list into the first post which you own? Makes it much easier to find!

Not copy: move. So that there is one official list, rather than several inconsistently updated.

[flash_uk]

Phil - could you copy the abbreviation list into the first post which you own? Makes it much easier to find!

Not copy: move. So that there is one official list, rather than several inconsistently updated.

Yes good point

[PhilW]

Phil - could you copy the abbreviation list into the first post which you own? Makes it much easier to find!

Not copy: move. So that there is one official list, rather than several inconsistently updated.

Agreed and done.

Also moved Vale Meao and Van Zeller abbreviations to their correct alphabetic position in list.

[jdaw1]

Alpha by abbreviation, or by dominant word in name? Perhaps I wasn't consistent: what is new guidance?

[Glenn E.]

I'd agree with VDM as most obvious choice, and to my mind no more confusing with potential Vesuvio single quinta as Gould Campbell GC is with potential new Graham's single quinta (i.e. we already cope with this issue). Do we not already have VM for Quinta do Vale Meao anyway?

Beat me to it. Yes, VM is Quinta do Vale Meao not Vesuvio Malvedos.

VDM also makes the most sense to me. I know we try to keep them as short as possible, but this is one of those cases where the extra length adds significantly to clarity.

[PhilW]

Alpha by abbreviation, or by dominant word in name? Perhaps I wasn't consistent: what is new guidance?

Alpha by abbreviation, though I wasn't intending to change the approach - should I revert?

[Alex Bridgeman]

People will want to look up both abbreviation to shipper and vice versa. We should have two lists.

[jdaw1]

Many links, in this thread and elsewhere, pointed to the old location of the list. Most, perhaps, all have been edited to point to the new first-post location.

[jdaw1]

People will want to look up both abbreviation to shipper and vice versa. We should have two lists.

In practice it will be difficult to keep in synch the two lists. Control-F is your friend.

[jdaw1]

I have just been advised Quinta da Devesa will be bottling 2018 as their first production of Vintage Port.

Some pictures on PortugalVineyards.com.

Dv? Could be Ds, but I prefer Dv. Any objections to Dv?

[PhilW]

Dv? Could be Ds, but I prefer Dv. Any objections to Dv?

Dv preferred (and already used here!)

[Glenn E.]

I also prefer Dv.

[jdaw1]

Burmester Quinta do Arnozelo needs an abbreviation. BA? BAz? Any opinions?

[Glenn E.]

Past practice seems to lead to BA, as we only rarely use more than 1 character except for disambiguation. Does Burmester have another Quinta that might need disambiguation from (A)rnozelo? Even if so, past practice seems to lead to first come first served, with only subsequent examples providing necessary disambiguation.

I say BA.

[PhilW]

Past practice seems to lead to BA, as we only rarely use more than 1 character except for disambiguation. Does Burmester have another Quinta that might need disambiguation from (A)rnozelo? Even if so, past practice seems to lead to first come first served, with only subsequent examples providing necessary disambiguation.

I say BA.

Agree, BA. Of course, there is also FrA1870 which is also Arnozello [two Ls], a single quinta vp release in 1870 - which we should of course be drinking this year; sadly my last case ran out never ago.

[jdaw1]

BA = Burmester Quinta do Arnozelo

Done.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I think Fr's Arnozello and Burmester's Arnozelo are the same quinta, just the effect of time and historically limited literacy having changed the spelling slightly (c.f. Vargelas and Vargellas).

I like the consistency of having XxA being the Arnozelo wine, whether made under the stewardship of Ferreira or Burmester. Sadly we didn't follow that logic when we named Taylor Vargellas as TV and Vesuvio as V. Ferreira made both a Ferreira Vargelas and a Ferreira Vezuvio in the 19C - we don't have abbreviations for those wines. Should we?

Should Vargellas become Vg with Vesuvio remaining V? That way we have FrV, V, FrVg and TVg (and TVgV).