Port brand abbreviations

[Glenn E.]

A bit of chatter on Twitter revealed that Quinta da Pedra Alta are releasing at 2018 next year. Assuming the price isn’t insane, I might go for this since I haven’t bought and 2018 VP yet and none of the other options have really tempted me.

Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?

No objection to Quinta da Pedra Alta taking PA.

DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

Ugh.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?

[PhilW]

Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?

No objection to Quinta da Pedra Alta taking PA.

Agree.

DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

Disagree - we usually use the brand not the company (though often they are similar/the same), c.f. Rebello Valente not Robertsons, or Smith Woodhouse not Symingtons etc. So I would not use AR.

As far as DR vs DSR goes, I've looked back and I can't see any Ribeira which is not Senhora (da) Ribeira, so having agreed/defined that as DSR then any prior use as DR is simply erroneous and can be ignored, we define DR to be used for DR ports.

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense, and I would use SL for the San Leonardo brand ports (though I think that brand is only used for tawny/white, not for any VPs?).

[jdaw1]

We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense

I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

[PhilW]

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense

I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

No objection here.

[Glenn E.]

DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

Disagree - we usually use the brand not the company (though often they are similar/the same), c.f. Rebello Valente not Robertsons, or Smith Woodhouse not Symingtons etc. So I would not use AR.

As far as DR vs DSR goes, I've looked back and I can't see any Ribeira which is not Senhora (da) Ribeira, so having agreed/defined that as DSR then any prior use as DR is simply erroneous and can be ignored, we define DR to be used for DR ports.

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense, and I would use SL for the San Leonardo brand ports (though I think that brand is only used for tawny/white, not for any VPs?).

I missed that we've previously used brand names, and greatly prefer DR in the first place, so switch my support to DR.

For the record, Smith Woodhouse is not a brand in the same way that DR, S. Leonardo, or Rio Bom are. Smith Woodhouse is a producer with its own quinta. I would even argue that Gould Campbell - which lacks its own quinta - is still not a brand in the same way that DR is. It, too, is a (former) producer with an independent history. DR, S. Leonardo, and Rio Bom are all proper brands - the have no history that I know of that is not associated with their respective companies.

A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.

We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense

I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

Only that in Portuguese, the pronunciation of Mourão leaves the 'r' nearly silent. A single 'r' in Portuguese is usually (but not always) much closer to an English 'h' than an English 'r'. So when I look at Mr, it does not say Mourão to me.

But my objection is not fierce. I dislike both Mo and Mr, but cannot think of a better suggestion.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Mo is closer to the way in which the first syllable of the name of the quinta

[jdaw1]

I dislike both Mo and Mr

Agreed: I dislike both Mo and Mr.

A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.

Since “the product is identical”, why not use the San Leonardo name and call them all SL?

[Glenn E.]

A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.

Since “the product is identical”, why not use the San Leonardo name and call them all SL?

It isn't clear to me what the intent is with the new label. I hadn't heard of Rio Bom being used for anything other than their table wine until fairly recently, but now they also sell TWAIOA under that label. Their own website does not have an VP listed under Rio Bom, though, so it seems that it would be safe to use SL as the abbreviation.

I'd also forgotten that Quinta do Mourão is not the company - that would be Mário Braga, Herdeiros. They own 4 other quintas as well. So SL is seeming more an more appropriate.

Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

[jdaw1]

We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?

Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I’ve just come across a tasting note in my efforts to catch up with transferring them all from paper to electronic form for a Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval 1977 brought by Zak to a tasting last year.

We have ROC as an abbreviation for Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas. What should we use as an abbreviation for Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval? ROCv? Should we change Carvalhas to ROCs?

[akzy]

I can't think of a better solution. It's annoying that it would make them both four characters but given the 'RO' for royal oporto, doesn't seem like anything else that makes sense.

[Glenn E.]

It's also annoying that the two Quintas use essentially the same consonants. Either could be Cr or Cv.

Precedent says that Carvalhas should remain C, and that Corval should then be something not easily confused with Carvalhas. Perhaps Cl?

But if we're going to change Carvalhas, since I am more familiar with it I would prefer to use Cv for Carvalhas and Cr for Corval.

Or, despite Julian's preference for consonants, they could be Ca and Co.

[jdaw1]

I also have a preference for not changing established things, unless necessary. So ROC remains Carvalhas.

As ‘r’, ‘v’ and ‘l’ are in both, unhelpfully, the best might be ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval.

Fierce objection, anybody?

[Alex Bridgeman]

Works for me

[winesecretary]

I am, with the utmost respect, with Glenn on this. Perhaps say ROCa and ROCo going forwards? A brief amendment could be made to the abbreviations list for the current ROC to explain the necessity for the updated terminology.

[Andy Velebil]

The odds of many TN's of this rare SQVP showing up are slim. Not worth changing what is already in place for a long established SQVP (Carvalhas). The ROCo is probably the best and easiest for Corval.

[Glenn E.]

I also have a preference for not changing established things, unless necessary. So ROC remains Carvalhas.

As ‘r’, ‘v’ and ‘l’ are in both, unhelpfully, the best might be ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval.

Fierce objection, anybody?

Works for me.

[PhilW]

Either of ROCo or ROCv would work for me. I prefer the latter as lead letter of next syllable, but accept the former allows better differentiation.

[jdaw1]

There isn’t passionate unanimity, but the following seems to be broadly acceptable, with some liking and nobody strongly disliking. So decision taken.

ROC = Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas
ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval

[jdaw1]

Quinta do Javali Vintage Maria Luísa 2018:

Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa Vintage é sinónimo de excelência e resulta da nossa constante exigência na qualidade. Em anos em que a excelência é atingida, o vinho merece a designação Maria Luísa.

Notas de prova
PDF

Cor escura e profunda, com auréola violácea e intensa. Na apreciação olfativa, destaca-se uma notável complexidade aromática, com notas frutadas de ameixa preta e amora. Em boca, fica confirmado que estamos perante um “enorme” Vintage Javali, com uma estrutura bem sólida, suportada por taninos opulentos e maduros. A fruta preta e o chocolate negro voltam a surgir num final longo e marcante.

Reminder: Jv = Quinta do Javali. Is Maria Luísa different juice, or merely more verbose branding?

[PCM]

That is difficult to say: the varieties are identical and the number of bottles produced is about the same as Quinta do Javali VP 2017 (suggesting it's the same product) but the pricepoint in their shop is even higher than for the "normal" VP. My guessing is: another name for the same product !

[PhilW]

Reminder: Jv = Quinta do Javali. Is Maria Luísa different juice, or merely more verbose branding?

I believe it is the designation for their special vines, which would suggest JvML

[Glenn E.]

Reminder: Jv = Quinta do Javali. Is Maria Luísa different juice, or merely more verbose branding?

I believe it is the designation for their special vines, which would suggest JvML

If so, then I agree with the abbreviation. But I think more research is warranted before adding to the list for something that has cropped up for the first time.

[jdaw1]

I believe it is the designation for their special vines

Are all of Javali’s vines deemed ‘special’?

[PhilW]

Reminder: Jv = Quinta do Javali. Is Maria Luísa different juice, or merely more verbose branding?

I believe it is the designation for their special vines, which would suggest JvML

If so, then I agree with the abbreviation. But I think more research is warranted before adding to the list for something that has cropped up for the first time.

I believe it is the designation for their special vines

Are all of Javali’s vines deemed ‘special’?

My Portuguese isn't good enough to tell. I got as far as determining that:
- they have released a Quinta do Javali VP in several previous years, and none of them included the Maria Luísa designation (all those labels simply say Quinta do Javali 20xx Vintage Port).
- they also produce various (non-fortified) wines, of which Maria Luísa is a particular brand; my translation capability gets limited here, it looks like they talk about it being from a specific line (of vines?), and a particular terroir - but that may be ephemeral marketing to describe a particular flavour profile, or could relate to specific vines (which could be the whole of QdJv, with grapes for their other wines coming from elsewhere, or could be a specific subset of vines at QdJv).
- the brief sheet for the QdJvML18 appears to say (again, limited translation capability here) that the QdJv18 has received the ML designation due to the particular quality, and of course just because they decide to use a designation relating to (potentially) "special"/particular vines at the QdJv property, may or may not imply that the wine is made from those vines either wholly, partly, or not at all and it't solely a marketing term.
It certainly seems to imply a "special" variant, with the additional term appearing to refer to some specific vines at the Quinta do Javali property; but that is as much as I can tell based on my limited capability of Portuguese translation, and I agree we need confirmation of whether/what it means from the producer.

[PCM]

This is a statement from the Quinta do Javali website (also available in English, my Portuguese is even more limited than Phil's )

"Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa Vintage is synonymous of excellence and results from our constant quality requirements. In years, when excellence is achieved, wine deserves the designation Maria Luísa."

Imho that doesn't mean it's a seperate vineyard but just a designation of quality. This is sustained by the fact that the composition of grape varieties is identical to that of the "regular" QdJ VP's and the number of bottles produced: 1279 in 2017 (no Maria Luisa) and 1301 (Maria Luisa, no regular) in 2018.

[jdaw1]

Q: is Javali Maria Luísa sufficiently different to Javali to have a different abbreviation? Your answer should compare and contrast with Fonseca and Fonseca Guimaraens.

[PCM]

Q: is Javali Maria Luísa sufficiently different to Javali to have a different abbreviation? Your answer should compare and contrast with Fonseca and Fonseca Guimaraens.

To be honest, the only one that can answer that question is the producer, not me (but I think it isn't!!)

[Glenn E.]

Q: is Javali Maria Luísa sufficiently different to Javali to have a different abbreviation? Your answer should compare and contrast with Fonseca and Fonseca Guimaraens.

FG is an excellent comparison, albeit in the opposite direction. If JvML is in fact a designation of quality that they're going to use more than once, then it seems appropriate to give it its own abbreviation as we have done with FG.

Its own abbreviation is also warranted if it is a vineyard designation, though given the size of the release relative to normal Jv releases that does not seem to be the case.

My only concern is that they're actually going to use it. I don't feel compelled to create an abbreviation for every one-off that some producer decides to produce and then forgets about. Note that we did not create an abbreviation for 2007 Niepoort Pisca and Dirk has not made it since. Perhaps we should assign it NiPi and see if that prompts him to make it again?

[winesecretary]

Right. But Niepoort Pisca became Bioma in 08. We have now had... five Biomas? It has longevity as a name.

But, that is not determinative. To my view, crucially, it is actually different from that wine from which it is distinguished. Thus, Pisca makes the actually differential cut, as does Bioma.

ML appears to be a marketing thing. We should ignore marketing things since it is not distinct from the underlying vineyard.

[jdaw1]

ML appears to be a marketing thing. We should ignore marketing things since it is not distinct from the underlying vineyard.

I am not saying that you are wrong. But you haven’t engaged with the precedent of Fonseca versus Fonseca Guimaraens.

[winesecretary]

Guimaraens is problematic, I agree, as it has appeared as Vintage, LBV and SQVP...

[Glenn E.]

Right. But Niepoort Pisca became Bioma in 08.

Right. So an abbreviation for Niepoort Pisca would be kind of useless since it was only made once, whether or not it is actually different than Bioma. (Which, according to Niepoort, it isn't. Second paragraph, last sentence.) And we already have an abbreviation for Niepoort Bioma (NiB).

Guimaraens is problematic, I agree, as it has appeared as Vintage, LBV and SQVP...

Not as SQVP, as it isn't a Quinta. It is a "second label" Vintage Port typically produced in off years when others are making SQVPs, but it isn't an SQVP itself. (Note that SQVP isn't a formal category, it's just something us geeks use to refer to Vintage Port from a single quinta that is usually only produced in off years and is typically less expensive than fully declared VP.) I don't recall whether or not they have ever produced both F and FG in the same year, but they could.

Appearing as an LBV isn't an issue because, well, every producer does that.

Back to Javali Maria Luísa. I don't think we should make it official until they produce it again, but if they do actually continue to use the name to represent a higher-quality version of their Port, then it is worthy of its own abbreviation just like FG.

[winesecretary]

@ Glenn - my apologies, I should have been more specific. Guimaraens - branded SQVPs from Quinta do Mileau were made in (at least) 1944, 1946 & 1947 (Book page 311); and Guimaraens -branded Quinta do Cruzeiro was made in 1982 (Book page 173) (vintageport.se adds 1978). VWAP has Guimaraens - branded 1958 LBV bottled 1962 for sale.

[Glenn E.]

Ah, I see what you're saying now.

Puzzling, as those look like a separate company (though they're obviously not). Winesearcher has this picture of the 1982 Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro bottled and shipped by Guimaraens Vinhos S.A.R.L. Fonseca is currently bottled and shipped by Quinta and Vinyard Bottlers Vinhos S.A., but I have bottles of Fonseca from a couple of different bottlers including both of the above plus a Fonseca Guimaraens Vinhos S.A. Seems that they've been changing the name of the bottling company fairly regularly.

10970926.jpg (11.17 KiB) Viewed 83388 times

[jdaw1]

Vintage Port and its declarations are entirely neat and organised, except when they aren’t.

And, though it sounds absurd to say so, he is really not so ugly after all, provided, of course, that one shuts one’s eyes, and does not look at him. The Lizards were extremely philosophical by nature, and often sat thinking for hours and hours together, when there was nothing else to do, or when the weather was too rainy for them to go out.

FG was mentioned mischievously, precisely because it’s so awkward.

[Glenn E.]

FG was mentioned mischievously, precisely because it’s so awkward.

Based on usual practice and the above picture, we should have a separate abbreviations for Fonseca Guimaraens and the various Guimaraens SQVPs. Potentially also for a straight Guimaraens VP, if such a thing was ever produced.

[jdaw1]

A decision is needed, and I think it should be the following. As yet, there is no need for a new abbreviation for Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa. It might be that, in time, one becomes appropriate, but with the information we have now, not yet.

Any strong objection?

[PhilW]

A decision is needed, and I think it should be the following. As yet, there is no need for a new abbreviation for Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa. It might be that, in time, one becomes appropriate, but with the information we have now, not yet.

I'm not aware of any urgency for a decision, however if one is needed in the short term I would agree with staying with Jv18 for now until we know better. FYI I did email the winemaker on Friday to ask the obvious questions, but have not had a response as yet - I will report back if/when I hear anything.

[PhilW]

FG was mentioned mischievously, precisely because it’s so awkward.

Based on usual practice and the above picture, we should have a separate abbreviations for Fonseca Guimaraens and the various Guimaraens SQVPs. Potentially also for a straight Guimaraens VP, if such a thing was ever produced.

Indeed, we should have a separate Guimaraens abbreviation, as it appeared as its own VP brand for many years; I would suggest Gm. As for the SQVPs - for Fonseca quinta do Panascal we already have FP, and with regard to Cruzeiros there is only the '78 (labelled FG78 but cork Cruzeiro) and the '82 (labelled Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro), and we have typically been less keen on assigning abbreviations for one-offs. So F, FG, FP, Gm would be sufficient imo. GmM could be added also for Guimaraens Quinta do Mileau (3 vintages) if wanted.

[Alex Bridgeman]

My opinion is that the need for an abbreviation should arise from the winemaker’s intention to make a distinction between winemaking philosophies.

Thus the winemaker clearly intends Croft Vintage Port to be viewed as distinct and different from Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Port; or Fonseca to be viewed as distinct and different from Fonseca Guimaraens. All should have separate abbreviations, even if only produced once. Quinta do Tedo produced their Savedra selection for the first time a few years ago (perhaps 2007? I forget and don’t have access to my notes as I write this). That was intended to be viewed as a different wine from the standard Tedo blend so should have received an abbreviation as soon as we became aware of it.

We are not clear whether the Javali Maria Luisa wine is a different selection, or a different wine-making approach — or just a particularly delicious vintage. I vote that we wait and see. Hopefully time will reveal the answer.

[Glenn E.]

A decision is needed, and I think it should be the following. As yet, there is no need for a new abbreviation for Quinta do Javali Maria Luísa. It might be that, in time, one becomes appropriate, but with the information we have now, not yet.

Any strong objection?

None here.

FG was mentioned mischievously, precisely because it’s so awkward.

Based on usual practice and the above picture, we should have a separate abbreviations for Fonseca Guimaraens and the various Guimaraens SQVPs. Potentially also for a straight Guimaraens VP, if such a thing was ever produced.

Indeed, we should have a separate Guimaraens abbreviation, as it appeared as its own VP brand for many years; I would suggest Gm. As for the SQVPs - for Fonseca quinta do Panascal we already have FP, and with regard to Cruzeiros there is only the '78 (labelled FG78 but cork Cruzeiro) and the '82 (labelled Guimaraens Quinta do Cruzeiro), and we have typically been less keen on assigning abbreviations for one-offs. So F, FG, FP, Gm would be sufficient imo. GmM could be added also for Guimaraens Quinta do Mileau (3 vintages) if wanted.

All sounds correct to me.

My opinion is that the need for an abbreviation should arise from the winemaker’s intention to make a distinction between winemaking philosophies.

Thus the winemaker clearly intends Croft Vintage Port to be viewed as distinct and different from Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Port; or Fonseca to be viewed as distinct and different from Fonseca Guimaraens. All should have separate abbreviations, even if only produced once. Quinta do Tedo produced their Savedra selection for the first time a few years ago (perhaps 2007? I forget and don’t have access to my notes as I write this). That was intended to be viewed as a different wine from the standard Tedo blend so should have received an abbreviation as soon as we became aware of it.

We are not clear whether the Javali Maria Luisa wine is a different selection, or a different wine-making approach — or just a particularly delicious vintage. I vote that we wait and see. Hopefully time will reveal the answer.

I like this explanation, but I still think we should normally defer until such time as an abbreviation is needed, or at least until the wine has been made more than once. The list already risks becoming unmanageable due to size. If we instantly created abbreviations for every VP produced it would balloon past that point very quickly.

[PhilW]

My opinion is that the need for an abbreviation should arise from the winemaker’s intention to make a distinction between winemaking philosophies.

Thus the winemaker clearly intends Croft Vintage Port to be viewed as distinct and different from Croft Quinta da Roeda Vintage Port; or Fonseca to be viewed as distinct and different from Fonseca Guimaraens. All should have separate abbreviations, even if only produced once. Quinta do Tedo produced their Savedra selection for the first time a few years ago (perhaps 2007? I forget and don’t have access to my notes as I write this). That was intended to be viewed as a different wine from the standard Tedo blend so should have received an abbreviation as soon as we became aware of it.

We are not clear whether the Javali Maria Luisa wine is a different selection, or a different wine-making approach — or just a particularly delicious vintage. I vote that we wait and see. Hopefully time will reveal the answer.

I've just heard back from the Quinta do Javali winemaker that the "Maria Luisa" designation is intended to indicate a particularly high quality vintage of their port (in comparison to their other years, and whether a generally declared year or not), not a different process or specific vines.

[Axel P]

Great list, dear Phil. Some changes/add ons requests:

OPO - OPORTUNIDADE
ChR - Churchill Quinta do Rio
Db - Douro Boys

Thanks and best

Axel

[jdaw1]

OPO - OPORTUNIDADE

On 04 Jan 2016 (review, placemats) “Ud” was used for Unidade. It seems much more sensible to emphasise the part of the name that isn’t “Porto”.

ChR - Churchill Quinta do Rio

Works for me.

Db - Douro Boys

The ‘B’ has to be a capital, which would clash with Dow Bomfim. So I’d prefer “DBy” or “DrB”.

[flash_uk]

Db - Douro Boys

The ‘B’ has to be a capital, which would clash with Dow Bomfim. So I’d prefer “DBy” or “DrB”.

What about DoB? DBy makes me initially think Dow <something>. I know that doesn’t automatically follow...we have DG for Duff Gordon, but DoB avoids any question? As does DrB or course...

[jdaw1]

What about DoB? DBy makes me initially think Dow <something>. I know that doesn’t automatically follow...we have DG for Duff Gordon, but DoB avoids any question? As does DrB or course...

No objection to DoB from me. I say neither worse nor better than DrB. Others?

[PhilW]

Prefer DrB for clearer differentiation from Dow Bonfim.

[Glenn E.]

I slightly prefer "DoB" aesthetically, but am convinced by Phil's argument for differentiation from Dow Bomfim. So I vote "DrB" also.

("Douro" is pronounced closer to Dur-Oh than to Do-Row, so the 'r' does not seem significant to me to the pronunciation.)

[Doggett]

DuB ?