Taylors Scion

[jdaw1]

Over 155 years, angels’ shares compound as follows:
0% ⇒ 1.0 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
¼% ⇒ 1.5 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
½% ⇒ 2.2 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
¾% ⇒ 3.2 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
1% ⇒ 4.7 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
1¼% ⇒ 7.0 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
1½% ⇒ 10.4 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
1¾% ⇒ 15.4 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
2% ⇒ 22.9 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
2¼% ⇒ 34.0 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
2½% ⇒ 50.6 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
2¾% ⇒ 75.4 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
3% ⇒ 112.3 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
3¼% ⇒ 167.5 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
3½% ⇒ 250.2 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
3¾% ⇒ 374.0 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
4% ⇒ 559.7 casks 155 years ago for one to remain today
r ⇒ (1-r)^(-155) casks 155 years ago for one to remain today

[RAYC]

So you're saying that roughly, for the 1050 litres available in bottle today, there would have to have been 53,000 litres in 1855 assuming a mid(ish)-point angel share of 2.5% p.a..

Is that a lot?

[jdaw1]

Yes: 53146 litres would diminish to ≈1050 litres if 2½% were lost 155 times. And that assumes that they didn’t drink any.

Is that a lot? Well, my ‘family reserve’ of port is, alas, considerably smaller than this.

[DRT]

So you're saying that roughly, for the 1050 litres available in bottle today, there would have to have been 53,000 litres in 1855 assuming a mid(ish)-point angel share of 2.5% p.a..

Is that a lot?

That is about half the size of one of the very large Tonels you would see in a big producer's lodge in VNG. In other words, yes, it's a lot.

But what needs to be factored in here, as Roy mentioned, is that topping up and/or refreshing have always been and still are common practice. If we are to question the authentisity of this port we must do the same of every barrel-aged port ever produced. We also have to remember that this is and has been declared to be a "family reserve" rather than a comercially produced and controlled wine. There are no rules to abide by here!! (although I am quite sure a few rain forrests had to be destroyed to supply the paperwork required by the IVDP to allow TFP to produce the labels!)

On the subject of colour, it is perfectly normal for very old cask aged wines to gain colour. Anyone who has had a newly bottled 1937 colheita will know what I'm talking about as they are invariably darker than their younger siblings from the same producer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not waiving the Taylor flag here, they are perfectly capable of doing that for themselves. I am just trying to inject some realism into the speculation

[jdaw1]

Derek: the point about the compounding is to show that ‘refreshing’ must have happened, that’s all. The questioning is of the purity of any claim that it is 155 years old.

[DRT]

Derek: the point about the compounding is to show that ‘refreshing’ must have happened, that’s all. The questioning is of the purity of any claim that it is 155 years old.

I know. But all producers of all old colheitas make the same claim in relation to whatever vintage is printed on the label. Why is this one different?

[Glenn E.]

Derek: the point about the compounding is to show that ‘refreshing’ must have happened, that’s all. The questioning is of the purity of any claim that it is 155 years old.

I know. But all producers of all old colheitas make the same claim in relation to whatever vintage is printed on the label. Why is this one different?

Actually, Taylor makes no claim about Scion being a Colheita. That's why the advertising is, to me, a bit misleading. They talk about it as if it is an 1855 Colheita, but they avoid using that term because it obviously isn't. I imagine that they're treading as closely as possible to some thin red line in that regard, because obviously an 1855 Colheita is more valuable than an 1855 Solera.

As I understand it, the rules for Colheitas are fairly strict. You can top off with the same wine, but you can't refresh with another (at least in theory). I suspect that today's regulations are virtually impossible to meet for most very old Ports because the regulations didn't exist back then so no one bothered to properly document the Port over the years.

That is about half the size of one of the very large Tonels you would see in a big producer's lodge in VNG. In other words, yes, it's a lot.

The largest containers that I saw on the Harvest Tour were around 27,000 liters, so they'd have needed to start with two of them not half of one. Most of the seemingly big Tonels in the lodges in V.N.d.Gaia were in the 17,000 to 20,000 liter range, though I think some were as small as 10,000 liters. Balseiros seemed to be smaller on average, though I don't have a good impression of their actual size. Probably 8,000 to 10,000 liters for the big ones.

This assumes that I have Tonels and Balseiros correct. (I'm constantly getting them mixed up.) Unless I have them backwards, Balseiros look like VERY large barrels that lie on their sides while Tonels are huge vats that look like half a barrel stood on end.

At any rate, the conclusion is the same. Yes, that's a LOT of Port. Far more than a typical "family reserve" as this is claimed to have been.

[DRT]

That is about half the size of one of the very large Tonels you would see in a big producer's lodge in VNG. In other words, yes, it's a lot.

The largest containers that I saw on the Harvest Tour were around 27,000 liters, so they'd have needed to start with two of them not half of one.

You've obviously never been to the Cockburn lodge

[JacobH]

Derek: the point about the compounding is to show that ‘refreshing’ must have happened, that’s all. The questioning is of the purity of any claim that it is 155 years old.

I know. But all producers of all old colheitas make the same claim in relation to whatever vintage is printed on the label. Why is this one different?

Actually, Taylor makes no claim about Scion being a Colheita. That's why the advertising is, to me, a bit misleading. They talk about it as if it is an 1855 Colheita, but they avoid using that term because it obviously isn't. I imagine that they're treading as closely as possible to some thin red line in that regard, because obviously an 1855 Colheita is more valuable than an 1855 Solera.

From the regulatory perspective, it wouldn’t surprise me if the IVDP has this just registered as a basic ruby, which is why Taylor hasn’t claimed its age on the packaging.

What does bother me about this is how it is possible to know that this was from the 1855 harvest? For instance, if the barrels have 1855 carved on them, who is to say that they didn’t once contain 1855 colheita but were refilled in 1900 or 1945 &c.? Even at those younger ages you would have a very ancient colheita that could have easily been forgotten about in a cellar.

[Glenn E.]

On the subject of colour, it is perfectly normal for very old cask aged wines to gain colour. Anyone who has had a newly bottled 1937 colheita will know what I'm talking about as they are invariably darker than their younger siblings from the same producer.

They get darker, but they never gain red. That's lost slowly over time and it never comes back.

I still think the color in this picture is simply an artifact of the special product shot image editing that has been done. As I mentioned before, the 1963 Dalva Golden White Colheita is nowhere near as dark in person as it is in the literature.

[DRT]

What does bother me about this is how it is possible to know that this was from the 1855 harvest? For instance, if the barrels have 1855 carved on them, who is to say that they didn’t once contain 1855 colheita but were refilled in 1900 or 1945 &c.?

Again, why is this different to any other similar claim by any other shipper in relation to a very old wood-aged port?

[DRT]

On the subject of colour, it is perfectly normal for very old cask aged wines to gain colour. Anyone who has had a newly bottled 1937 colheita will know what I'm talking about as they are invariably darker than their younger siblings from the same producer.

They get darker, but they never gain red. That's lost slowly over time and it never comes back.

I still think the color in this picture is simply an artifact of the special product shot image editing that has been done. As I mentioned before, the 1963 Dalva Golden White Colheita is nowhere near as dark in person as it is in the literature.

Deep mahogany in colour with an olive-green rim

[JacobH]

What does bother me about this is how it is possible to know that this was from the 1855 harvest? For instance, if the barrels have 1855 carved on them, who is to say that they didn’t once contain 1855 colheita but were refilled in 1900 or 1945 &c.?

Again, why is this different to any other similar claim by any other shipper in relation to a very old wood-aged port?

Just a combination of factors: i) other very old wood-mature Ports have been about half the age of this; ii) they have been sold as colheitas which means at least the IVDP is happy that they are from that harvest; iii) they have come from lodge stocks where better records might be expected, rather than from family supplies in the Douro.

I don’t mean to give the impression that I doubt the age of this Port, I am just curious how they can say with certainty that it is a 1855.

[jdaw1]

I don’t mean to give the impression that I doubt the age of this Port

I think you do.

[DRT]

other very old wood-mature Ports have been about half the age of this

The Burmester 1900 Colheita, which I have tasted and is mentioned earlier in this thread, is more than two thirds the age of this. Graham's recently claimed to have Colheita's as far back as the mid to late 1800s. Many other shippers have casks with extremely old years written on them in chalk. Why are we not questioning all of those?

they have been sold as colheitas which means at least the IVDP is happy that they are from that harvest;

How could they possibly know? A 1900 "Colheita" was in cask for 50 years before they existed!

[jdaw1]

they have been sold as colheitas which means at least the IVDP is happy that they are from that harvest;

How could they possibly know? A 1900 "Colheita" was in cask for 50 years before they existed!

Please confirm that you really mean that the regulatory body was founded post-WW2.

[DRT]

exceptionally clean and fresh, not maderised or baked

This bit I find difficult to believe. How can a wine live in the Douro for 155 years, refreshed or not, and not be at least slightly "baked". That's 155 summers at 40ish degrees C. Anyone who has been in a Douro "cellar" (a very loose term as I haven't actually seen one yet that is more than 3/4 underground) will know that they are anything but cool.

[jdaw1]

Perhaps, only as a hypothesis, by being ‘refreshed’ with un-baked wine?

[DRT]

they have been sold as colheitas which means at least the IVDP is happy that they are from that harvest;

How could they possibly know? A 1900 "Colheita" was in cask for 50 years before they existed!

Please confirm that you really mean that the regulatory body was founded post-WW2.

Sorry for not checking exact dates. The IVDP, who regulate now, have existed since 2003. The IVP, one of three former regulatory bodies that existed prior to the creation of the IVDP, were created in 1933. I'm not sure this significantly changes the point I was trying to make.

[Glenn E.]

On the subject of colour, it is perfectly normal for very old cask aged wines to gain colour. Anyone who has had a newly bottled 1937 colheita will know what I'm talking about as they are invariably darker than their younger siblings from the same producer.

They get darker, but they never gain red. That's lost slowly over time and it never comes back.

I still think the color in this picture is simply an artifact of the special product shot image editing that has been done. As I mentioned before, the 1963 Dalva Golden White Colheita is nowhere near as dark in person as it is in the literature.

Deep mahogany in colour with an olive-green rim

I don't understand the point of your quote.

Mahogany is not black, which is the color that Scion appears to be in the product literature, and which is the basis for my comment. I doubt very much that the Port is as dark in person as it is in that product shot. Further evidence? The cork in the product shot is very nearly white. I've never seen a cork that white.

What I'm saying is that the color in the picture should not be used as evidence of refreshing because the picture's color is likely not accurate.

[Glenn E.]

What does bother me about this is how it is possible to know that this was from the 1855 harvest? For instance, if the barrels have 1855 carved on them, who is to say that they didn’t once contain 1855 colheita but were refilled in 1900 or 1945 &c.?

Again, why is this different to any other similar claim by any other shipper in relation to a very old wood-aged port?

For me, at least, it is in part because of the price and hype. If you claim your Port is from 1855 and charge 2500 Euros for it, it is going to get more scrutiny than if you claim it is from 1900 and charge 800 Euros for it. If you claim your amazingly old Port is in near perfect condition and position it for high-end collectors it is going to get more scrutiny than if you simply put it on the market.

In short, this entire launch invites extra scrutiny.

[DRT]

I don't understand the point of your quote.

Mahogany is not black, which is the color that Scion appears to be in the product literature, and which is the basis for my comment. I doubt very much that the Port is as dark in person as it is in that product shot. Further evidence? The cork in the product shot is very nearly white. I've never seen a cork that white.

What I'm saying is that the color in the picture should not be used as evidence of refreshing because the picture's color is likely not accurate.

I wasn't really making a point. I was just linking your comment on the colour of the picture to mayson's observations of the colour of the wine in the glass

[DRT]

why is this different to any other similar claim by any other shipper in relation to a very old wood-aged port?

For me, at least, it is in part because of the price and hype. If you claim your Port is from 1855 and charge 2500 Euros for it, it is going to get more scrutiny than if you claim it is from 1900 and charge 800 Euros for it. If you claim your amazingly old Port is in near perfect condition and position it for high-end collectors it is going to get more scrutiny than if you simply put it on the market.

In short, this entire launch invites extra scrutiny.

I agree. But perhaps the discussion here will open eyes and minds as to what they are buying from other producers at a lesser, but still enormous, price.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Richard Mayson has his TN on this up - pity I did not realise before as could have asked for further impressions at the Noval/Nacional tasting.

http://www.richardmayson.com/Port_Notes/

Is Richard's note still there? I've looked, but can't find it.

[DRT]

It's at the bottom of this report.

[uncle tom]

I think the bottom line here is that the appearance of this wine and RM's tasting note seem very inconsistant with a wine that has lain in wood for 155yrs in the Douro.

As the TFP are seeking to realise some 3 million euros from the sale of a couple of pipes, I think the onus is on them to substantiate the claims they are making.

A radio carbon test to establish the mean age of the wine would cost less than one glass of it.

- I think it should be conducted.

Tom

[Daniel R.]

Ray,

Thanks...here is some background from Maysons site.

...a one-off bottling of a pre-phylloxera Port dating back to the mid”“nineteenth century, probably 1855. It comes from a quinta belonging to the late Irene Viana Pinto in the village of Prezegueda in the Corgo valley near Régua.

part of his tasting note

leaving an aftertaste of Elvas plums.

Of the very old colheita's and tawny's I've had, I can't say I've ever run across a plum aftertaste in any of them.

Andy: Elvas plums are not fresh fruit. The fresh fuit that goes into this are Rainha Cláudia plums. They are boiled and preserved in a sugar syrup. The taste mentioned in the TN I would imagine is of preserved fruit.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I read an interesting article in Decanter magazine this lunchtime, about the problems Zachys and Acker Merril and Condit are facing from the litigation mounted by William Koch.

I hope that TFP have all the documentation in place to be able to demonstrate on the balance of probability that their claims are true. The claims on which I might make a value based judgement are:
"In 2008 Taylor’s wine maker David Guimaraens became aware of the existence of a very old and rare cask-aged port dating from before the arrival of Phylloxera in the Douro Valley" - I understand this to imply that Taylor's have been looking to acquire this wine for 1-2 years and that the wine is exclusively pre-phylloxera.

"The wine belonged to a distinguished Douro family and was stored in a lodge in the village of Prezegueda in the Corgo Valley" - and therefore I might expect a certain amount of Doruo bake (which I quite like as one of the flavour components in a port). Daniel's comment on the plum description that Richard used is interesting as stewed plums might be evidence of the Douro bake.

"Taylor’s acquired samples and, amazingly in view of its age (harvest of 1855), the wine was found to be in faultless condition" - faultless - probably nothing more than an opinion, but clearly the wine cannot be contaminated with TCA, Brett., VA or any one of a number of other faults; clearly stating that the wine came from the single harvest of 1855.

"In view of its extraordinary quality, rarity and remarkable historical interest, it was decided by the firm’s Managing Director Adrian Bridge that the wine should not be blended but should be offered by Taylor’s as a unique collector’s item" - TFP have not blended this wine.

"It is one of the last wines in perfect drinking condition to survive from the pre-Phylloxera era and is therefore of historical interest " - again, implying that the wine is all pre-phylloxera.

"Remarkably for a wine aged in wood for over 15 decades..." - again giving consistent support to the implication that the wine is earlier than the 1860 harvest.

If I'm honest, I probably won't buy one of these because it is a colheita and I don't enjoy the oxidatively aged port as much as I do the reductively aged version. If these were bottles of 1855 vintage port that had been found in the same cellar and were being sold at the same price then I would be seriously tempted. After all, cellar door Nacional 1963 sells for over €5,000 a bottle these days - not often, but it does sell!

Incidentally, Tom's suggesting radio carbon dating - how accurate is that technique these days? Would it be accurate enough to show the wine was an average age of, say, 100 years rather than 155? I wonder if the German government might be tempted to test the wine in the way they did when the 1972 vintage was being shipped...

[jdaw1]

Or test for caesium.

a second test on the wine itself was devised by Philippe Hubert at the Centre for Nuclear Studies.

It uses a gamma ray detector to study the levels of radioactive particles in the wine, in this case caesium-137, that have been present in the atmosphere since the era of atomic weapons testing began after World War II.

"The main advantage of this technique is we don't need to open the bottle to do these kinds of measurements," Professor Hubert relates.

"We just have to put the bottle close to or on top of the detector."

Using bottles donated from the chateaux, Philippe Hubert has built up a record of caesium-137 levels in wine across the second half of the 20th Century.

"In the wine," he says, "is the story of the atomic age."

The measurements show that caesium levels rise dramatically from 1951, reaching a peak at around the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, and then dropping dramatically, reflecting the atmospheric test ban treaty agreed by Presidents Kennedy and Khrushchev in 1963.

The next spike in the data comes in 1986, caused by fall-out from the nuclear accident at Chernobyl.

"If you have an old wine, say from 1860, for example; if you see some caesium in such a bottle, then immediately you can tell that this bottle is a fake one."

If it works on wine from 1860, it should cope with 1855.

[uncle tom]

how accurate is that technique these days?

Most quoted dates give a window that is +/- 5% of a central date; so for an 1855 harvest, the accuracy should be good enough to confirm whether or not it is a pre-phylloxera wine.

Tom

[Glenn E.]

how accurate is that technique these days?

Most quoted dates give a window that is +/- 5% of a central date; so for an 1855 harvest, the accuracy should be good enough to confirm whether or not it is a pre-phylloxera wine.

I've seen various accuracies, including Tom's +/- 5%. Also +/- 40 years, +/- 14 years, and "within 100 years during the best ages and up to 300 years during the weaker ages." Most discussions that I have seen say that carbon dating is only accurate back 3000-5000 years from present, but they don't say if there's a minimum age for accuracy to be established.

[Glenn E.]

If it works on wine from 1860, it should cope with 1855.

My worry would be that the test appears to have been conducted only on dry wine, which remains sealed in bottle for its entire life.

Scion is a wood-aged Port. Would a wood cask provide the same screening characteristics as a glass bottle and thus prevent the entry of atmospheric Cesium? Could atmospheric Cesium be introduced into the wine during bottling, or when the wine is refreshed/topped off?

[uncle tom]

Radio caesium (Cs137) is a product of the atomic age, and was virtually non-existent prior to 1945.

The alcohol in the wine should provide a good source of carbon for radio carbon (C14) dating.

Tom

[JacobH]

I don’t mean to give the impression that I doubt the age of this Port

I think you do.

No, not at all. My view is this: this is an unusual wine, which is being sold at vast cost on the basis of its great age. Taylor’s would not be so foolish to be marketing this if they were not highly confidence of its provenance. If they got it wrong, and were found out, it would be disastrous for the brand and kill of any ability for it to sell other products in the ultra-premium market (which I’m sure they would dearly love to populate). I am therefore just curious on what basis they have decided this is from 1855.

other very old wood-mature Ports have been about half the age of this

The Burmester 1900 Colheita, which I have tasted and is mentioned earlier in this thread, is more than two thirds the age of this. Graham's recently claimed to have Colheita's as far back as the mid to late 1800s. Many other shippers have casks with extremely old years written on them in chalk. Why are we not questioning all of those?

I think the difference here is that this is stated to have been found in a private cellar in the Douro valley. I think there is a world of difference between a cask of 1900 which was matured in a VNG cellar along with colheitas from 1905, 1910, 1920 &c. (especially as many of the shippers kept extremely detailed records of the cellars) and a long lost cask that was found in someone’s private garrafeira.

The evidence that Taylor’s have for the age of this may be simple and prosaic. There may be good records of this cellar’s stocks. Many of us were fortunate enough to see some of the old records from Vesuvio at the Vesuvio tasting earlier this year. However, just because of the unusual back-story to this, I would be interested to know what the evidence is.

[uncle tom]

If they got it wrong, and were found out, it would be disastrous for the brand

Indeed, and looking at Alex's analysis of the hype, It's fair to say that the TFP have nailed their colours to the mast here.

We know that a 40yr Tawny is not normally 40 years old, but only has the appearance of such, because that's what the IVDP dictate. Such a Cavalier attitude to product description seems to be acceptable in parts of mainland europe, although it is specifically illegal in the UK.

With this product however, the TFP have no IVDP regulation to hide behind. It will not wash for them to say that it is a pre-phylloxera wine because it looks like one, and if this wine has had even the least amount of refreshment over the last century and a half, they could be in very serious trouble.

Tom

[DRT]

Breaking News: Scion is under-priced by a factor of 10 !!

Lafite Sets Wine Record $230,000 a Bottle in Sotheby's Hong Kong Auction

[Andy Velebil]

Breaking News: Scion is under-priced by a factor of 10 !!

Lafite Sets Wine Record $230,000 a Bottle in Sotheby's Hong Kong Auction

[uncle tom]

There are some strange goings-on at these Hong Kong auctions..

- Sales that are billed simply as 'wine' but contain only French product...

- Sales where every lot sells above estimate..

- Sales where the cataloguing looks far too tidy..

- Sales that realise mega-bucks prices, often double or more those in London, despite the Chinese being the most cost-conscious buyers on the planet..

- and when non-French product does get offered, the prices seem quite modest..

Add to that the French willingness to indulge dirty tricks at government level, and I get very suspicious.

The possibility that the French are playing games to support their wine makers seems hard to dismiss...

..could the buyer and vendor of these bottles be one and the same, with a stooge as underbidder?

- I wouldn't be surprised..

Tom

[jdaw1]

Tom: That’s an interesting hunch. Is there any possibility of a more formal set of evidence?

[g-man]

There are some strange goings-on at these Hong Kong auctions..

- Sales that are billed simply as 'wine' but contain only French product...

- Sales where every lot sells above estimate..

- Sales where the cataloguing looks far too tidy..

- Sales that realise mega-bucks prices, often double or more those in London, despite the Chinese being the most cost-conscious buyers on the planet..

- and when non-French product does get offered, the prices seem quite modest..

Add to that the French willingness to indulge dirty tricks at government level, and I get very suspicious.

The possibility that the French are playing games to support their wine makers seems hard to dismiss...

..could the buyer and vendor of these bottles be one and the same, with a stooge as underbidder?

- I wouldn't be surprised..

Tom

well there are other factors at work tom. Asians are also notorious for saving alot and gambling. They don't really save into a bank that pays almost 0% interest and a govt that randomly cracks down on taxes and fees so it all goes to cash. The only real way to put that money is to invest in something, and wine is becoming the hot vehicle to move money around that art was a few years ago. And since certain wines have been shooting up in value, other other decide to get into the game and randomly buy the names they know like the tulips of olden days.

There's also this nonsense about how govt officials only drink lafite and if you wanted any business done, you'd have to get a lafite, but i think that's more rumor then truth.

[uncle tom]

Is there any possibility of a more formal set of evidence?

When I'm not running around with gunpowder under my fingernails, I might take the time to do a little more analysis..

Tom

[uncle tom]

There's also this nonsense about how govt officials only drink lafite and if you wanted any business done, you'd have to get a lafite, but i think that's more rumor then truth.

I've done a little research on this, and have opened some interesting bottles in the heart of China (in elevated company, where they were politely received - no more..)

Conclusions:

1) The ethnic Chinese are very tannin averse, and don't like red wine unless it's been filtered to death or cut with Coke..

2) The nouveau riche of China have very little knowledge of (or interest in..) foreign beverages - most have heard of Champagne and Cognac, but some have no idea that France makes anything else..

3) I would be fairly confident in stating that over 95% of the Chinese who can afford it; have never heard of Lafite..

Tom

[DRT]

would be fairly confident in stating that over 95% of the Chinese who can afford it; have never heard of Lafite..

That doesn't sound unlikely, but do you really think the same would be true if you limited the scope to the super-rich of Hong Kong and those from surrounding territorries who might shop there?

[g-man]

would be fairly confident in stating that over 95% of the Chinese who can afford it; have never heard of Lafite..

That doesn't sound unlikely, but do you really think the same would be true if you limited the scope to the super-rich of Hong Kong and those from surrounding territorries who might shop there?

or how bout those like me who can't afford it but have heard of it =)

I have no doubt about the wealth that gets hoarded in central hk as a quick stop to watson's wine shop shows a plethora of fancy aged bordeaux out in the open, but the rest of china? I'm with Tom on this one.

I'd say it's for purposes of moving money around as there seems to be no concern about price paid.

[Daniel R.]

Interesting remark made by João Nicolau de Almeida of Ramos Pinto over on made me think of this topic:

"Ramos Pinto finished bottling Colheitas to dedicate exclusively to the Tawnies with an indication of age (10, 20 and 30 year-old). The main reason for this was that the Tawnies (Colheitas) were aging in wood and we needed to refill the cask. So, since there was already some blend (which the IVDP approves) and in order to be coherent to the consumer we decided to follow the typical culture of the Blend of Port."

[jdaw1]

Echoing comments above on the growing Chinese market, an email just arrived from Wilkinson with the subject ‟Lafite 1961 IMPERIALE for Chinese New Year !”. (Costing a mere ‟£30,000/imp”, tatty label and all.)

[g-man]

Echoing comments above on the growing Chinese market, an email just arrived from Wilkinson with the subject ‟Lafite 1961 IMPERIALE for Chinese New Year !”. (Costing a mere ‟£30,000/imp”, tatty label and all.)

heh, I thought lafite only put out like 5-10 of these imperials for the 61 vintage ever.

I'd be highly suspicious of this bottle =)

[Andy Velebil]

In case anyone is curious as to how they sent out the samples of this, check HERE Test tubes in a box.....

[Alex Bridgeman]

Andy

Thanks for the link. I wonder how much one of those box + test tubes (empty) would sell for on ebay...

Alex

[JacobH]

**puts on conspiracy-theory hat**

Has anyone else noticed that the Scion label describes the wine as being a "Very Old Port"? The IVDP regulations specify that a designation of "very old" is to be reserved for a 40-year-old tawny. I wonder whether that implies there has been quite a bit of "refreshing" of this Port over the years?