ThePortForum.com

I was in my cellar and looking over a few of my older bottles to ensure they were in good shape. I was looking at my lone bottle of 1945 Croft VP. when I realized the gold and black capsule said Whitwham's on it. The fill level is good, the capsule is in good condition, but the front label is ragged and incomplete. I've seen occasional comments on here about Whitwham as a bottler. They don't seem to be held in high regard. What are my chances this bottle will be good?

They've been pretty good for me. Not sure where they got that reputation.

I believe it is the re-bottling that generally have had some issues, not always from my understanding.

They have had a long standing, shall we say, infamous reputation. I avoid like the plague anything older bottled and especially “recorked” by them.

I can’t recall ever having that specific VP with their label so can’t speak from specific experience. However, almost every older VP I’ve had from them has been off in either a small or large way. I hope yours shows on the better side.

hadge wrote:I believe it is the re-bottling that generally have had some issues, not always from my understanding.

Actually, no it isn’t limited to re-bottlings.

I've had very mixed experience with Whitwhams, but I suspect this may be somewhat self-selecting, since looking back at my records I can find only one port actually bottled by them, while there are several which have been recorked by them, and others where a Whitwhams generic label has been applied to bottles. In this last case, the bottles might just have been obtains by Whitwhams and so a generic label added - this is certainly the case for some bottles I have seen which had intact capsules with the original bottler names indicated - or might indicate that the bottle has also been recorked by Whitwhams, even though it doesn't say so on the front label (this seems to have been the case with the later recorking in the late 80s/90 with the newer-style generic label, whereas the older generic label in the late 70s/80s included the recorking date). Additionally, several tasting notes online refer to Whitwhams as the bottler where I suspect they may simply mean it had a Whitwhams label; without seeing the label I cannot confirm either way.

The following is my list of known Whitwham bottlings, recorkings and use of their generic labels (and where known, the actual bottler) based on having seen the information on the labels/capsules for these bottles:

Known Whitwhams bottlings:
1970 Fonseca
1970 Taylor
(1979 Whitwhams Crusted, though not bottled by them, since all port now bottled in Portugal by this date)
(and Whitwhams Millenium port, reputedly comprised 95% 1880 colheita, 5% Niepoort 1945, bottled in 2002)

Known Whitwhams recorkings:
1878 Sandeman - recorked by Whitwhams in 1990
1908 Cockburn, recorked by Whitwhams in 1984
1908 Taylor - recorked by Whitwhams in 1978
1912 Rebello Valente - recorked by Whitwhams in 1988
1917 Croft - recorked by Whitwhams in 1978, opened in 2014; delicious, albeit with a very slight odd edge.
1927 Croft - recorked by Whitwhams in 1976, opened in 2017; terrible, tasted like antiseptic - undrinkable.

Known Whitwhams generic labels:
1908 Martinez
1927 Taylor (known to have been bottled by Berry Brothers)
1934 Gould Campbell
1960 Fonseca (known to have been bottled by Corney and Barrow)

As mentioned above, there are other tasting notes which reference items such as a Whitwhams bottling of Fonseca 1927 (reported as being terrible, FWIW - but I have not seen a picture of the bottle, and suspect this might perhaps have been a recorked bottle.

The Whitwhams-bottled Fonseca I have opened was fine. Of the other three bottles opened (two recorked, one believed to have been recorked), two were very poor, and one was very good (though a very slight odd edge, but this may have been age, and/or the wine, rather than due to the re-corking). Not a large sample, of course, but it sets a bar. Also noting these wines may have been recorked because they were leaking, and already in poor condition, and likely to be older; hence recorked bottles are effectively potentially self-selected to be poorer.

So I would summarise as:
- Whitwhams-bottled : no problem
- Whitwhams-labelled : potentially ok, but might be recorked even if it doesn't say so; check capsule, and if recorked then see below.
- Whitwhams-recorked : potentially terrible, though you might get lucky.

Thanks for your input everyone. Great, detailed info, Phil. I appreciate it.

Mike - I should have asked - could you post a couple of pics of your bottle? (full bottle, and capsule from top/side)
I've only ever seen one version of Cr45, with a distinctive bottle shape, bottled in Oporto with the T+C (Thomson and Croft) stamp on the red wax, so am curious as to what your bottle looks like?

There you go Phil. The bottle is brown and the fill level is about 1/3rd up the neck.

Interesting - thank you. The bottle and labels match well to all the other Croft 1945 I've seen, which usually have a red wax capsule with "CROFT T&C OPORTO", the though wax is often mostly missing. I wonder whether Whitwhams recorked this, or perhaps just put their seal on over the top to make it safer prior to international shipping.

BTW, going back to your initial question of "What are my chances this bottle will be good?", I would say that if you have a good fill level, then the next thing to check is the colour of the wine, by shining a torch through the main body of the bottle (not just through the neck). The best stored bottles are still a good solid red colour, so if you see a nice red then there is a very good chance it will be an excellent bottle; red/orange might be good, after that you move to orange/yellow and probably not so good.

Not going to lie that is one cool bottle. The first Port harvest of the nuclear age.

The end of what one might call, "low-background Port."

I generally avoid bottles handled by Whitwham's but I think I'm probably over cautious.

I suspect that what happened was that in the 1970s to 1990s, Whitwham's were willing to recork bottles which most other merchants would politely decline. The result was that a bottle which was already oxidised, pale in colour and with a low fill would have a failing cork removed, perhaps the bottle would be topped up and then the bottle would be recorked and a new capsule put on the bottle.

But once a wine has oxidised, it will always be flat and lifeless.

PS - all 1945 Croft was bottled in Oporto so your Whitwham's capsule suggests that it was at least recapsuled by them and was probably recorked by them. As Phil suggests, if the colour of the wine is good, you're probably in for a real treat when you open the bottle.

Thanks again everyone for your comments.

Phil, I just held a flashlight / torch up to the body of the bottle and it showed a light, bright cherry red. Lots of sediment.

Alex, I wish the capsule (or else a small label) had said it was recorked so I knew for sure. God willing, I'll still be around in 2025, because that's when I plan to open that 80 year-old Port. I'll post my findings then.

So, I guess I have to start worrying (and hoping for the best) ?

Maybe we should have a Whitwham tasting of old bottles.