Software that makes placemats

Organise events to meet up and drink Port.
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jdaw1
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 11:29 Wed 16 Dec 2015

As the 1975 horizontal was ending, Tom was calculating the damage. Some people had brought Port, most hadn’t, and there was the cost of the food. Tom looked up from his scribbling and asked that, to help do this, there be an accounting page.

Sure. But what should it be?

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flash_uk
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by flash_uk » 11:42 Wed 16 Dec 2015

jdaw1 wrote:As the 1975 horizontal was ending, Tom was calculating the damage. Some people had brought Port, most hadn’t, and there was the cost of the food. Tom looked up from his scribbling and asked that, to help do this, there be an accounting page.

Sure. But what should it be?
Something like this perhaps.
Picture1s.jpg
Picture1s.jpg (30.44 KiB) Viewed 2044 times
The bottles contribution line is completed at the start of the evening, a per person average computed (in this case 41.50), and this is also completed in the bottle cost line. Once the bill arrives, the meal cost per person is completed. Finally the calculation is made column by column for who owes/is owed.

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uncle tom
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by uncle tom » 10:43 Thu 17 Dec 2015

Something like that would be very helpful - thankyou..
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 12:21 Thu 17 Dec 2015

In the voting sheets, there is one column per name (example on right). This arrangement was chosen partly because, happily, we typically have more wines than people. This is the same arrangement as Mike’s spreadsheet.

But the Accounting page has only a few fields per name, so it seems more natural to have one name per row rather than one name per column, which is the transpose of Mike’s spreadsheet. Objections?

Draft parameters:

Code: Select all

/AccountingNumCopies 1 def

/AccountingTopText (Accounting) def

/AccountingColumnTitles [  % Array of even length, alternately header for group of columns, and array of those columns' headers
[
	(Bestowals)  [ (Wine) ]
	(Costs)      [ (Food &c)  (Wines) ]
	(Settlement) [ (Owes) (Is owed) [(P) /quoteright {-0.08 Kern} (d?)] ]
] def

/AccountingColumnRelativeWidths [ 4 4 4 4 4 1 ] def

/AccountingExtraRows [ () (Total) () ] def
Comment welcomed. Notes follow.

AccountingNumCopies: Inserted following Flash’s suggestion three posts below.

AccountingTopText: must be a parameter to allow non-English possibilities.

AccountingColumnTitles: In the instance in which a group of columns has only one column, the group’s column title should be short: hence “Bestowals” rather than “Contributions”. Do suggest better. Also, should there be a few columns with blank titles? If so, within the groups already present, or in a new blank group?

AccountingColumnRelativeWidths: allows “P’d?” column to ne narrow, holding no more than a tick.

AccountingExtraRows: extra rows under those of the names, to cope with extra people, sub-calculations, changes of mind, &c.

Is this wanted? Is this what is wanted?

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by PhilW » 15:54 Thu 17 Dec 2015

jdaw1 wrote:As the 1975 horizontal was ending, Tom was calculating the damage. Some people had brought Port, most hadn’t, and there was the cost of the food. Tom looked up from his scribbling and asked that, to help do this, there be an accounting page.

Sure. But what should it be?
I would suggest it should not be. Several reasons:
- During a tasting is not the best time to do the calculation (note the accuracy of voting summations).
- This is only really relevant for larger tastings where either a large amount of wine comes from a subset of the individuals, or there is significant disparity due to some bringing much older wines. In previous tastings (at least some of those I have organised) some people have been very generous in providing their (significant) contribution either as "if this covers me, I don't want anything more for it" or at very low cost. Such gentlemanly behaviour is appreciated and should not be discouraged (and yes I think group analysis might do so).
- Given such variations, a spreadsheet is more reliable.
- During a tasting is not the best time to do the calculation (I know, I said it already, but it's the most important reason).

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by Glenn E. » 17:05 Thu 17 Dec 2015

PhilW wrote:- During a tasting is not the best time to do the calculation (I know, I said it already, but it's the most important reason).
Translated into post-tasting speak:

- doing the calcing-thing not now right. Hey is that bottle empty?

I have no objections, but likely wouldn't use the function. If there are remunerations to be made, I calculate and distribute them prior to the event (and bring a copy with me).
Glenn Elliott

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by flash_uk » 23:11 Thu 17 Dec 2015

PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:As the 1975 horizontal was ending, Tom was calculating the damage. Some people had brought Port, most hadn’t, and there was the cost of the food. Tom looked up from his scribbling and asked that, to help do this, there be an accounting page.

Sure. But what should it be?
I would suggest it should not be. Several reasons:
- During a tasting is not the best time to do the calculation (note the accuracy of voting summations).
- This is only really relevant for larger tastings where either a large amount of wine comes from a subset of the individuals, or there is significant disparity due to some bringing much older wines. In previous tastings (at least some of those I have organised) some people have been very generous in providing their (significant) contribution either as "if this covers me, I don't want anything more for it" or at very low cost. Such gentlemanly behaviour is appreciated and should not be discouraged (and yes I think group analysis might do so).
- Given such variations, a spreadsheet is more reliable.
- During a tasting is not the best time to do the calculation (I know, I said it already, but it's the most important reason).
I'm not sure it's such a bad thing. I agree this is only really relevant for the bigger tastings with an imbalance in bottle provision - the sheet can be an optional, like many others in the software. It is true that attempting the calculations during, or at the end of the tasting could lead to error, however that is not caused by having a sheet available. It happens because 13 or 14 people are standing around with cash/cards in their hand trying to be helpful and make a fair contribution. Sheet or no sheet, Tom found himself needing to undertake difficult maths at a less that ideal time - the sheet could only have helped I believe! And there is nothing to stop gentlemanly contribution continuing, which is always appreciated :D

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 23:50 Thu 17 Dec 2015

flash_uk wrote:the sheet can be an optional, like many others in the software.
jdaw1, in editing his post four above, wrote:

Code: Select all

/AccountingNumCopies 1 def

AccountingNumCopies: Inserted following Flash’s suggestion three posts below.
There would also have to be administrative parameters such as PageOrderingAccounting, and perhaps others.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by uncle tom » 11:30 Fri 18 Dec 2015

If one has all the numbers to hand in advance, then a computation at a sober moment is preferable, but that's only possible at a minority of events - the food bill is usually variable, and late additions and deletions to the wine list are not uncommon.

A simple computation sheet would therefore assist..
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 18:58 Fri 18 Dec 2015

Experience tells me that shared costs should be calculated, notified and settled in advance of large structured tastings. If people then decide to bring extras or not show up that is their choice. Ideally the bottles should also be collected in advance to eliminate the problem of late withdrawals or no shows on the day.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"

Ernest H. Cockburn

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 20:10 Fri 18 Dec 2015

PhilW wrote:… not the best time to do the calculation …
… a spreadsheet is more reliable…
DRT wrote:… should …
I agree with both of you.
flash_uk wrote:… optional…
… Sheet or no sheet, Tom found himself needing to undertake difficult maths at a less that ideal time - the sheet could only have helped …
uncle tom wrote:If one has all the numbers to hand in advance, then a computation at a sober moment is preferable, but that's only possible at a minority of events - the food bill is usually variable, and late additions and deletions to the wine list are not uncommon.

A simple computation sheet would therefore assist..
I agree that this is alien to Planet Should, and really belongs on Asteroid Helpful. Which is a yes, partly grudging. Would it be sensible for the default to be that it appears if the length of Names is ≥7?

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 08:09 Sat 19 Dec 2015

I don't think what appears to have happened to Tom this time should be encouraged.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"

Ernest H. Cockburn

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 10:40 Sat 19 Dec 2015

Do you believe that the existence of an Accounting sheet on the placemats would materially discourage or disincentivise early administration?

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 11:09 Sat 19 Dec 2015

Yes. "I'll sort it out on the night" could become the normal behaviour.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"

Ernest H. Cockburn

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 14:32 Sat 19 Dec 2015

DRT wrote:"I'll sort it out on the night" could become the normal behaviour.
Why the conditional mood? With very few exceptions, we do attempt to “sort it out on the night”. It has been suggested that if the Accounting page exists, we would attempt it neither more nor less often — i.e., it would remain “the normal behaviour” — but might be done more accurately.

Do you agree with these assertions?

† So far this year, I recall only the 1985 horizontal in which finances were computed in advance. And even those were altered on the night.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 15:08 Sat 19 Dec 2015

Admittedly, I have not been to many tastings recently. Normal behaviour for this part of the organisation appears to have changed. As I am unlikely to organise a major tasting in the foreseeable future my view on the matter is of little or no significance.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"

Ernest H. Cockburn

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 15:22 Sat 19 Dec 2015

DRT wrote:Admittedly, I have not been to many tastings recently. Normal behaviour for this part of the organisation appears to have changed.
For the verticals, in which a minority of bottles were the majority of the cost, accounting needs more attention. We seem to have been doing horizontals recently.
DRT wrote:As I am unlikely to organise a major tasting in the foreseeable future my view on the matter is of little or no significance.
The matter is settled democratically, by a weighted vote, in which my vote is the only one with non-zero weight. Good reasoning is what matters; not whether you will organise a tasting.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 16:58 Sun 03 Jan 2016

Please comment:

Image
(Edited to update image.)

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by flash_uk » 15:09 Wed 06 Jan 2016

The accounts page looks good to me. Presumably with 4 people at the test tasting, it was not put to use?

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 15:12 Wed 06 Jan 2016

flash_uk wrote:Presumably with 4 people at the test tasting, it was not put to use?
Correct. My home printer isn’t happy, and I wanted to see a page — which has resulted in some minor improvements to the aesthetic.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 22:44 Thu 14 Jan 2016

How many glasses can sensibly go on one sheet of /USL2 = US Ledger = 17″×11″? This has been discussed on :ftlop2014:. As a test Eric Menchen printed this test PDF (which has pages of 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 20, and 21 glasses), and has posted photographs of glasses on these 17″×11″ pages. Answer: sixteen.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 23:48 Thu 14 Jan 2016

jdaw1 wrote:How many glasses can sensibly go on one sheet of /USL2 = US Ledger = 17″×11″? This has been discussed on :ftlop2014:. As a test Eric Menchen printed this test PDF (which has pages of 13, 14, 15, 16, 18, 20, and 21 glasses), and has posted photographs of glasses on these 17″×11″ pages. Answer: sixteen.
Surely this depends on which style of glasses are used?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"

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jdaw1
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 23:51 Thu 14 Jan 2016

DRT wrote:Surely this depends on which style of glasses are used?
Yes.
[url=http://fortheloveofport.com/ftlopforum/viewtopic.php?p=127383#p127383]On :ftlop2014:[/url] Eric Menchen wrote:I used a Schott Zwiesel SIZA Port Wine Glass. I think this the same as an IVDP glass. It has a squared stem with a notch in it. The base diamter is 2¾", whereas the bowl appears to have a maximum diameter of 2½".

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by Glenn E. » 06:59 Fri 15 Jan 2016

The SZ has a larger base than the INAO tasting glass. I have held tastings with both 18 and 20 INAO glasses on /USL2 and it works fine. Examples, in fact, can be seen in Roy's most recent newsletter.
Glenn Elliott

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jdaw1
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 22:29 Fri 15 Jan 2016

For the sake of completeness, there is now a /A3 test PDF, with circle sizes as follows.

Code: Select all

On /A3 = 420mm×297mm:
13 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 128.918 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.58″ ≈ 91.0mm 
14 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 122.466 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.40″ ≈ 86.4mm 
15 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 118.978 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.30″ ≈ 83.9mm 
16 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 113.932 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.16″ ≈ 80.4mm 
18 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 110.614 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 3.07″ ≈ 78.0mm 
19 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 107.034 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 2.97″ ≈ 75.5mm 
20 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈ 103.868 pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 2.89″ ≈ 73.3mm 
21 glasses   ⇒   radius ≈  98.4921pt ⇒  diameter ≈ 2.74″ ≈ 69.5mm

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