Software that makes placemats

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jdaw1
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 16:40 Sat 19 Nov 2011

For the GC + SW + QH triple vertical on Thu 17 Nov 2011, RAYC made several similar versions of the placemats, and then overlapped the printouts to simulate the following A3 arrangement.
Image
Of course this overlapping of multiple copies is unacceptable.

Currently the array parameter PermittedPackingStyles may contain any of (and must contain at least one of) /PseudoHexagonal, /SquareGrid, /RectangularDislocation, /RectangularDislocationV, /TwoRowsOrTwoColumns, /GaiaElegant, /Gaia, or /Irregular or one of its variants. None of these do quite what RAYC required.

The proposal is to allow PermittedPackingStyles to contain an array, at least as long as the number of glasses on the page. That array would contain sub-arrays of locations, [ x y ]. My code would then choose the radius and separately scale the x and y directions such that things fit as snugly as possible, obviously subject to the other upper bounds on the radius. That gives the technical user a lot of control over the rare complicated cases, whilst the usual name parameters still cope with the vast majority of arrangements that could be wanted.

In the particular case of the GC+SW+QH tasting, the element of PermittedPackingStyles could have been [ [0 2] [2 2] [4 2] [6 2] [0 1] [3 1] [6 1] [0 0] [3 0] [6 0] ]. Observe that this example assumes that positive y points north. This echoes the usual PostScript convention; but conflicts with the usual page arrangements in which glasses with a small WithinPage are at the top.

Thoughts? Comments? Views on which direction positive y should be? Bottle of Taylor 1977?

(This post the last on this page. Please could the first to reply to it quote it, except this line.)

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 17:48 Sat 19 Nov 2011

jdaw1 wrote:After the GC + SW + QH triple vertical on Thu 17 Nov 2011, DRT asked that there be extra paper between tasters’ sets. He then suggested that this could be my placename page. So JDAW placename, JDAW glasses, JDAW TNs, then the next person’s same.

My thinking is as follows.

• I could add an extra page, marked with my name, with no other function. The wastage rankles.

• Or it could be the placename, as DRT suggested. But RAYC prints the placenames to card, so having them non-consecutive would complicate his printing.

• Or alternate sets (alternate people, so to speak) could be rotated by 180°. But would that be sufficiently different for the task at hand?

What do others think?
I think the wastage caused by the first option is no more environmentally wasteful than RAYC's unnecessary use of card and the third option doesn't solve the problem.

I now prefer my first suggestion of having a simple separator between the placemat and tasting note set of each attendee. The placename sheets can then be placed together so that they can be printed on card or not.
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 20:40 Sat 19 Nov 2011

DRT wrote:I think the wastage caused by the first option is no more environmentally wasteful than RAYC's unnecessary use of card
The wastage is additional, not substitutional.
DRT wrote:the third option doesn't solve the problem.
Does it lessen the problem?

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by RAYC » 21:10 Sat 19 Nov 2011

jdaw1 wrote:After the GC + SW + QH triple vertical on Thu 17 Nov 2011, DRT asked that there be extra paper between tasters’ sets. He then suggested that this could be my placename page. So JDAW placename, JDAW glasses, JDAW TNs, then the next person’s same.

My thinking is as follows.

• I could add an extra page, marked with my name, with no other function. The wastage rankles.

• Or it could be the placename, as DRT suggested. But RAYC prints the placenames to card, so having them non-consecutive would complicate his printing.

• Or alternate sets (alternate people, so to speak) could be rotated by 180°. But would that be sufficiently different for the task at hand?

What do others think?
DRT wrote: I think the wastage caused by the first option is no more environmentally wasteful than RAYC's unnecessary use of card and the third option doesn't solve the problem.
For what percentage of tastings do we include the placenames? 10%-20%....? Including them in the placemat set for every tasting regardless of need could be argued as wasteful (more so than DRT's argument re: use of card), though i am not going to get too excited about a few sheets of A4 paper once in a while. If people are that concerned about waste, i should start off by acquiring recycled paper to print on. Or using laminated placemats with numbered circles that can be re-used at multiple tastings. Or eating less cheese/meat etc. etc. etc.

But overall i don't think this is a problem that requires changes to the code. Presumably the easy answer is for the printer to simply insert a post-it note or sticky tab in-between each person's set of placemats, rather than try to control this in the printing? It would take but a minute. My printer also has the option to insert a blank sheet of coloured A4 paper in between printed sheets at set intervals, so this is another option where i am printing. If required, the coloured A4 paper could be collected for re-use by whoever is concerned by their wastage!
Rob C.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 21:42 Sat 19 Nov 2011

RAYC wrote:Or eating less cheese/meat
Steady on, old chap. This is meant to be a civilised discussion about a PostScript program.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 22:23 Sat 19 Nov 2011

jdaw1 wrote:
RAYC wrote:Or eating less cheese/meat
Steady on, old chap. This is meant to be a civilised discussion about a PostScript program.
Hear, hear!!! {grumble, grumble, grumble, vegetarian eco-warrior nonsense, grumble, grumble...)

What about: CollateAndSeparate /def no {set to yes if required} ?
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 09:40 Sun 20 Nov 2011

DRT wrote:What about: CollateAndSeparate /def no {set to yes if required} ?
Collation is conceptually separate and already done.

The wastage still rankles, and it also gives the appearance of pre-planned wastage. Do we really want, camped outside our tastings, bearded eco-warrior feminist types with organic-linen banners bearing Hutcheson scrawls? Do we really?

The 180° thing is easy, so will be done, even if it is only a small improvement.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 10:52 Sun 20 Nov 2011

jdaw1 wrote:The wastage still rankles, and it also gives the appearance of pre-planned wastage. Do we really want, camped outside our tastings, bearded eco-warrior feminist types with organic-linen banners bearing Hutcheson scrawls? Do we really?
No, we don't want that. I am not against feminism as such, but not when combined with beards.
jdaw1 wrote:The 180° thing is easy, so will be done, even if it is only a small improvement.
90° would solve the problem entirely.
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 11:47 Sun 20 Nov 2011

DRT wrote:90° would solve the problem entirely.
Are you being helpful?

Edit: let me take the suggestion seriously. Some printers do have an ‘A4R’ tray, for A4 rotated by that so-useful 90°. But some (most?) such printers will output to a different output tray. Further for transport to the venue some (most?) people would need to align all the pages both to shrink the size and to prevent pages moving and ceasing to be flat.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 23:40 Sun 20 Nov 2011

jdaw1 wrote:The 180° thing is easy, so will be done, even if it is only a small improvement.
Rotate180AlternateNames is done. E.g.:Comment welcomed.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 00:19 Mon 21 Nov 2011

Image
Done.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by PhilW » 10:48 Mon 21 Nov 2011

jdaw1 wrote:• I could add an extra page, marked with my name, with no other function. The wastage rankles.

• Or it could be the placename, as DRT suggested. But RAYC prints the placenames to card, so having them non-consecutive would complicate his printing.

• Or alternate sets (alternate people, so to speak) could be rotated by 180°. But would that be sufficiently different for the task at hand?

What do others think?
I agree that the "this page left intentionally blank" equivalent is a waste. While considering the requested solution (additional blank page between each set of sheets), perhaps it is worth clarifying the requirement in order to determine the options and best solution; Would I be right in thinking that the requirement/issue here is to clarify the start of each person's set of sheets? If so, a simple marker in one corner which only appears on the first of each set of sheets might address this without using additional sheets, for example (another option could be to use double-sided printing and have alternate people sheets on opposite sides, though that would only work for double-sided capable printers).
jdaw1 wrote:For the GC + SW + QH triple vertical on Thu 17 Nov 2011, RAYC made several similar versions of the placemats, and then overlapped the printouts to simulate the following A3 arrangement.
Image
Of course this overlapping of multiple copies is unacceptable.

Currently the array parameter PermittedPackingStyles may contain any of (and must contain at least one of) /PseudoHexagonal, /SquareGrid, /RectangularDislocation, /RectangularDislocationV, /TwoRowsOrTwoColumns, /GaiaElegant, /Gaia, or /Irregular or one of its variants. None of these do quite what RAYC required.

The proposal is to allow PermittedPackingStyles to contain an array, at least as long as the number of glasses on the page. That array would contain sub-arrays of locations, [ x y ]. My code would then choose the radius and separately scale the x and y directions such that things fit as snugly as possible, obviously subject to the other upper bounds on the radius. That gives the technical user a lot of control over the rare complicated cases, whilst the usual name parameters still cope with the vast majority of arrangements that could be wanted.

In the particular case of the GC+SW+QH tasting, the element of PermittedPackingStyles could have been [ [0 2] [2 2] [4 2] [6 2] [0 1] [3 1] [6 1] [0 0] [3 0] [6 0] ]. Observe that this example assumes that positive y points north. This echoes the usual PostScript convention; but conflicts with the usual page arrangements in which glasses with a small WithinPage are at the top.

Thoughts? Comments?
I'd suggest that the [x y] scales should be of the same proportion (which they are either not, above, or you have additional column gaps which I don't believe you don't intend if they are). So for the example you are creating, with proportionate scales the elements would be [ [0 4] [2 4] [4 4] [6 4] [0 2] [3 2] [6 2] [0 0] [3 0] [6 0] ].
Views on which direction positive y should be?
As you have it in the example.
Bottle of Taylor 1977?
Yes please, shall we order some steak too?

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by RAYC » 12:59 Mon 21 Nov 2011

DRT wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
RAYC wrote:Or eating less cheese/meat
Steady on, old chap. This is meant to be a civilised discussion about a PostScript program.
Hear, hear!!! {grumble, grumble, grumble, vegetarian eco-warrior nonsense, grumble, grumble...)
I think you have both misunderstood the point i was making!

Anyway, i will re-pose my initial question: would sticky-tabs/post-it notes that are inserted after printing not be an easier way of separating tasting sets at the tasting set-up?
Last edited by RAYC on 13:15 Mon 21 Nov 2011, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by RAYC » 13:06 Mon 21 Nov 2011

PhilW wrote:(another option could be to use double-sided printing and have alternate people sheets on opposite sides, though that would only work for double-sided capable printers).
To elaborate on this suggestion, which i think is a good one (by comparison to 180 degree rotation):

Imagine a tasting of 12 ports and jdaw1, DRT and PhilW in attendance. The tasting set might come off the printer in the following order:

jdaw1 placemat1
jdaw1 placemat2
jdaw1 tastingnote1
jdaw1 tastingnote2
DRT placemat1
DRT placemat2
DRT tastingnote1
DRT tastingnote2
PhilW placemat1
PhilW placemat2
PhilW tastingnote1
PhilW tastingnote2

If, instead, blank sheets were inserted in the following configuration, printing the placemats double-sided would result in alternate-facing tasting sets:

jdaw1 placemat1
blank
jdaw1 placemat2
blank
jdaw1 tastingnote1
blank
jdaw1 tastingnote2
blank
blank
DRT placemat1
blank
DRT placemat2
blank
DRT tastingnote1
blank
DRT tastingnote2
PhilW placemat1
blank
PhilW placemat2
blank
PhilW tastingnote1
blank
PhilW tastingnote2
Rob C.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by PhilW » 14:24 Mon 21 Nov 2011

Should I mention my suggestion that the cork display sheet should include origami folding lines to allow the base sheet to be manipulated into a number of rectangular areas with dividers, to prevent the corks from being able to roll out of their areas...? (and I thought the "cork display sheet", while fastidiously and fabulously implemented [of course!], was itself a tongue in cheek suggestion...) :twisted:

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by PhilW » 15:58 Mon 21 Nov 2011

RAYC wrote:Imagine a tasting of 12 ports and jdaw1, DRT and PhilW in attendance.
.... followed by imagining the three of us in A&E I think!

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 18:16 Mon 21 Nov 2011

I would like to challenge the notion that inserting a named sheet between each person's placemat set is wasteful.

The full set for a large tasting now comprises many different elements. Each of those elements has a particular temporary purpose:

>> placemat sheets are useful for the duration of setting up and executing the tasting
>> tasting note sheets are useful while tasting and (unless lost) up to the point where the TNs are typed
>> decanting sheets are each useful during decanting of a single bottle
>> pouring sheets are useful during the pouring of each bottle
>> decanter label sheets are rarely used
>> place name sheets are useful until everyone sit down
>> cork sheets are useful up until the point when people start stealing corks
>> placemat separator sheets would be useful whilst setting up the table

I agree that all of the above have varying degrees and durations of usefulness, but all of them eventually become redundant. Some are redundant in a few minutes, some in a few hours, but all are helpful during the period they are used.
PhilW wrote:
RAYC wrote:Imagine a tasting of 12 ports and jdaw1, DRT and PhilW in attendance.
.... followed by imagining the three of us in A&E I think!
Agreed. We might die of thirst unless there are 15 bottles.
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 19:45 Mon 21 Nov 2011

In practice the duplex idea is unlikely to be robust. Students of the code will recall

Code: Select all

		<< /ImagingBBox null  /Duplex false  /PageSize [PageWidth OuterMarginL OuterMarginR add add  PageHeight OuterMarginB OuterMarginT add add]  >> setpagedevice
yet printers seem quite willing to ignore the /Duplex false.

Derek’s list of sheets is somewhat unfair. Not all of these are always useful. But those known to be redundant aren’t generated. There is at least the intention that all produced sheets are useful. And even if the wastage of 13 sheets of paper is small relative to the general consumption, how well would it fix the problem?

Indeed, please state exactly what the problem is.

Edit: I would be willing to try the Jog and OutputFaceUp flags, described on page 418 of the PostScript Language Reference Manual 3.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 19:51 Mon 21 Nov 2011

PhilW wrote:I'd suggest that the [x y] scales should be of the same proportion (which they are either not, above, or you have additional column gaps which I don't believe you don't intend if they are). So for the example you are creating, with proportionate scales the elements would be [ [0 4] [2 4] [4 4] [6 4] [0 2] [3 2] [6 2] [0 0] [3 0] [6 0] ].
In most other layout designs I have adopted the general principle of using the whole page. For example, in the placemats for the Star Quality tasting, observe the small gap between the columns the constraint on circle size was y not x. If this code scaled the two directions the same, then typically there would two large gaps, either left and right, or top and bottom. :-(

Or have I misunderstood what you are advocating?

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by RAYC » 20:04 Mon 21 Nov 2011

jdaw1 wrote:Indeed, please state exactly what the problem is.
The process of separating the tasting mats/note sheets at the last tasting set-up was felt to be rather too slow and an easier/quicker way was sought.

I'm not sure i saw it as a problem, or at least i'm not sure i saw it as a problem that should be solved through the code rather than sticky tabs.
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 21:23 Mon 21 Nov 2011

That code fragment has been updated to

Code: Select all

		<<
			/OutputFaceUp DefaultOutputFaceUp 4 index {not} if  /Duplex false
			/ImagingBBox null  /PageSize [PageWidth OuterMarginL OuterMarginR add add  PageHeight OuterMarginB OuterMarginT add add]
		>> setpagedevice
this starting with two things on the stack, the lower of which is the rotation boolean.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 21:24 Mon 21 Nov 2011

RAYC wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Indeed, please state exactly what the problem is.
The process of separating the tasting mats/note sheets at the last tasting set-up was felt to be rather too slow and an easier/quicker way was sought.

I'm not sure i saw it as a problem, or at least i'm not sure i saw it as a problem that should be solved through the code rather than sticky tabs.
We have all missed the obvious solution. The problem, however small, was caused by the fact that the last sheet of one person's placemat is not obviously different to the first sheet of the next set when flicking through the pile of sheets. Printing each person's placemat followed by their tasting note sheets solves that problem completely.
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 21:25 Mon 21 Nov 2011

DRT wrote:Printing each person's placemat followed by their tasting note sheets solves that problem completely.
Which has been the default behaviour for some years.

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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by DRT » 21:30 Mon 21 Nov 2011

jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:Printing each person's placemat followed by their tasting note sheets solves that problem completely.
Which has been the default behaviour for some years.
Perhaps that is why I perceived the set provided for this tasting to be a problem.
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Re: Software that makes placemats

Post by jdaw1 » 21:42 Mon 21 Nov 2011

DRT wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:Printing each person's placemat followed by their tasting note sheets solves that problem completely.
Which has been the default behaviour for some years.
Perhaps that is why I perceived the set provided for this tasting to be a problem.
That would be these placemats, exhibiting exactly the same default behaviour, would it? Unless Rob’s faffing caused the problem.

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