Port House abbreviations

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PhilW
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 10:30 Sat 01 Jun 2013

The following abbreviations are used ...

<snip> - list moved to first post in thread.
Last edited by PhilW on 10:43 Tue 10 Mar 2020, edited 2 times in total.

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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 11:05 Tue 04 Jun 2013


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AHB
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 12:43 Tue 04 Jun 2013

I've been giving some thought the matter of abbreviations and how we cope with general declarations, lesser declarations, the growth of single quinta wines and also the changing of ownership of quintas.

It seems to me that the only way we could cope was to have a structure that essentially went:
Part 1; Part 2; vintage

Part 1 would identify the shipper, if a shipper was relevant.
Part 2 would identify the quinta, if the port was sourced from a single quinta (or vineyard)
The vintage could be abbreviated, but this could lead to confusion whether we were referring to Taylor 1811, 1911 or 2011.

On this basis you could quickly have a set of rules that allowed flexibility. Consider the example of Vargellas sourced wines:
In 1912, Taylor made a vintage port, a Vargellas single quinta port and a Vargellas single quinta port from the old vines (OK, so they didn't make the latter but just bear with me for the example).
The abbreviations could be:
T 1912
T Vg 1912
T VgVV 1912

This naming structure also allows flexibility so that prior to Taylor Fladgate owning Vargellas, you would have had "Fe Vg 1878", this being the Vargellas 1878 produced under the Ferreira ownership.

If at a point in the future Vargellas become independently owned, the wines would just be identified as Vg 2050.

This type of naming convention would allow a quick search to find all wines produced by a particular shipper or from a particular quinta, or a combination of the two.

It would create some headaches as there would have to be no duplications between quinta abbreviations and shipper abbreviations but it would also help with differentiating between some of the quirks like Quinta do Noval Silval (NoS) and Quinta do Noval Quinta do Silval (No Si). A search on "No" would pull out both wines but still allow a more refined search to identify only one of the two.
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 12:51 Tue 04 Jun 2013

One of the desiderata is brevity. ‟TV96” works a lot of the time. FrVg1878 (or FeVg1878) is a much smaller proportion of my diet.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by AHB » 13:15 Tue 04 Jun 2013

jdaw1 wrote:One of the desiderata is brevity. ‟TV96” works a lot of the time. FrVg1878 (or FeVg1878) is a much smaller proportion of my diet.
True - it is a balance between completeness, brevity and clarity.

If we are just looking for a commonly understood abbreviation then TV96 mostly works.

If we're looking for something which in years to come can be searched and found and understood with clarity then TV96 will generally work, but will leave room for confusion - Taylor Vargellas 1896 or 1996?

Perhaps a quick solution is to abbreviate only where there is potential confusion? Thus TV96 would be TV1996 or TV1896 but FeV78 would be just that? Or perhaps abbreviate 20th century vintages and those where there is no confusion - TV96, TV1896 and FeV78

But life is too short for me to become too worried about this. If we develop a common standard, I will use it; otherwise I will use common sense.
Top Ports in 2019 (so far): Cockburn 1947 and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
2018 Ports of the year: São Leonardo 1927 White Port (Bottled 2018), Quinta do Noval Nacional 1994

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djewesbury
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by djewesbury » 16:06 Tue 04 Jun 2013

jdaw1 wrote:One of the desiderata is brevity. ‟TV96” works a lot of the time. FrVg1878 (or FeVg1878) is a much smaller proportion of my diet.
Also, we have to allow for user having a certain amount of brain at their disposal. Perhaps not the end of the world if they are presented with a choice between 1878 and 1978 on searching for a particular wine. They will have very little to do in order to find the notes on the tipple by which they are confronted at that moment. Of course, an infallible system that is ready for any eventuality is always good. Good luck with that one...
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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 16:27 Tue 04 Jun 2013

Perhaps what is wanted is a system with AHB-style longer abbreviations, but also with concise versions to be used only where context disambiguates.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by djewesbury » 16:38 Tue 04 Jun 2013

jdaw1 wrote:Perhaps what is wanted is a system with AHB-style longer abbreviations, but also with concise versions to be used only where context disambiguates.
thoroughly sensible. +1
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PhilW
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 11:24 Fri 07 Jun 2013

Agree with all of AHB's post, plus the benefit of brevity/simplicity.
jdaw1 wrote:Perhaps what is wanted is a system with AHB-style longer abbreviations, but also with concise versions to be used only where context disambiguates.
Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.

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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 15:51 Fri 07 Jun 2013

PhilW wrote:Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.
So, for Churchill Agua Alta, you want ChAA rather than CAA. Presumably you give greater weight to internal consistency than to brevity.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 17:21 Fri 07 Jun 2013

jdaw1 wrote:
PhilW wrote:Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.
So, for Churchill Agua Alta, you want ChAA rather than CAA. Presumably you give greater weight to internal consistency than to brevity.
I would also accept ChA for brevity (thought ChAA seems more natural), but yes, very strong dislike for CAA.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 17:44 Fri 07 Jun 2013

PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
PhilW wrote:Agree, though I would suggest the additional rule that the Shipper should never be abbreviated.
So, for Churchill Agua Alta, you want ChAA rather than CAA. Presumably you give greater weight to internal consistency than to brevity.
I would also accept ChA for brevity (thought ChAA seems more natural), but yes, very strong dislike for CAA.
Agreed. CAA would be a Cockburn property.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 16:43 Sun 31 Jul 2016


PhilW
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 20:53 Sun 31 Jul 2016

I would make the following changes:

Ck = Cockburn
VC = Vesuvio Capela

and would suggest:

ChAA Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
DSR Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
KSL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by idj123 » 21:00 Sun 31 Jul 2016

Agree with Phil regarding the Ck and VC. Is there any reason why Krohn isn't Kr?

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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 21:09 Sun 31 Jul 2016

PhilW wrote:Ck = Cockburn
Oops, I started from an old list. Agreed.
PhilW wrote:VC = Vesuvio Capela
idj123 wrote:Agree with Phil regarding the Ck and VC.
Clarity versus pedantry. I’m happy with either. VC it is.
PhilW wrote:ChAA Churchill Quinta da Agua Alta
I prefer the brevity of ChA, which is still unique.
PhilW wrote:DSR Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
Senhora feels to me to be a low-information word, hence my preferring the DB-like DR. Other votes?
PhilW wrote:KSL = Kopke Quinta São Luiz
São is definitely a low-information word. Yes yes, obviously Luiz’s mother was pleased with the promotion, but for our purposes, low-information. And KL traditional: 27 June 2009, 23 Oct 2009, 16 March 2010, 28 Sep 2010 (which also has Kh for Krohn), and 20 Jan 2013.
idj123 wrote:Is there any reason why Krohn isn't Kr?
None except being traditional. Though WK also has merit.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 23:05 Sun 31 Jul 2016

Additional suggestions:

Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier. (This has been previously suggested by Phil.)

DG bothers me, as it appears to be a Dow Quinta. I do not see a viable alternative. There are numerous others that bother me for similar reasons, with equally lacking alternatives. GB and GC, for example. (GL and GM are Graham estates, but GB and GC aren't?) As further information, BN doesn't bother me as much because Burmester doesn't have any SQVP bottlings, so the issue for me is mostly confined to cases that might cause confusion.
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by Glenn E. » 23:10 Sun 31 Jul 2016

Question: do you distinguish between Graham Malvedos and Graham Quinta dos Malvedos?
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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 23:46 Sun 31 Jul 2016

Glenn E. wrote:Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.
General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR = Croft Roeda (14 May 2010, 2 Mar 2012, 15 Oct 2012 (which has Cr70 and CR70 side-by-side), and 16 June 2014); and for MC = Cachão (2 Mar 2012 and 12 Oct 2013 (pages 284, 374, 378, 383, and others) ).
Glenn E. wrote:DG bothers me, as it appears to be a Dow Quinta. I do not see a viable alternative. There are numerous others that bother me for similar reasons, with equally lacking alternatives. GB and GC, for example. (GL and GM are Graham estates, but GB and GC aren't?) As further information, BN doesn't bother me as much because Burmester doesn't have any SQVP bottlings, so the issue for me is mostly confined to cases that might cause confusion.
The only logical solution is Dw = Dow, and that because Glenn gets confused by Duff Gordon. Not going there.
Glenn E. wrote:Question: do you distinguish between Graham Malvedos and Graham Quinta dos Malvedos?
The abbreviations are meant to cope as well as concision allows with almost all relevant cases. Are there any years in which there are both Graham Malvedos and Graham Quinta dos Malvedos? No. Good.

Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or ? Perhaps I prefer the latter.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by DRT » 04:58 Mon 01 Aug 2016

I would suggest avoiding the use of squiggles. (Calem, Pocas, Vale Meao). These abbreviations are intended to make life simple. Don't condemn your readers to a life sentence of searching for squiggles that don't obviously exist on their keyboard.

I agree with everything JDAW has said in response to other suggestions.
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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 10:03 Mon 01 Aug 2016

DRT wrote:I would suggest avoiding the use of squiggles. (Calem, Pocas, Vale Meao). These abbreviations are intended to make life simple. Don't condemn your readers to a life sentence of searching for squiggles that don't obviously exist on their keyboard.
Sort-of. There should not be both and Ca; there should not be both and Pc; there should not be both and Ma. That means that being limited to ASCII does not introduce ambiguity. But there’s no harm in the canonical version being correct.
DRT wrote:I agree with everything JDAW has said in response to other suggestions.
As everybody should.

Outstanding question:
jdaw1 wrote:Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or ? Perhaps I prefer the latter.

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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 11:01 Mon 01 Aug 2016

jdaw1 wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.
General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR ...
I missed the above in my first scan through the list, but agree with Glenn that the Producer abbreviation once defined should be kept the same whether with/without additions. This is a case of clarity over brevity for me. Note that even JDAW sometimes appear to favour clarity over brevity (TVVV where TVV would be sufficient to be unique and shorter; but hence my argument for ChAA - even if ChA may have appeared previously).
jdaw1 wrote:Quinta de Vale Meão: VM or ? Perhaps I prefer the latter.
VM for me based on previous (we already have GB which is not Graham Quinta do Bingo, so yes there is a minor lack of clarity between houses vs quintas unless we were to define a rule that all producer abbreviations must include 1+ capitals followed by 1 lower - but that would be so much change from what is in use and understood by all that I don't think we should make such a change. So yes, occasional ambiguity acceptable on grounds of practicality).

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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 11:08 Mon 01 Aug 2016

PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.
General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR ...
I missed the above in my first scan through the list, but agree with Glenn that the Producer abbreviation once defined should be kept the same whether with/without additions. This is a case of clarity over brevity for me. Note that even JDAW sometimes appear to favour clarity over brevity (TVVV where TVV would be sufficient to be unique and shorter; but hence my argument for ChAA - even if ChA may have appeared previously).
Good spot on the inconsistency, which I’d rather resolve by shortening TVVV to TVV. Am I alone?

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jdaw1
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by jdaw1 » 11:09 Mon 01 Aug 2016


PhilW
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Re: Port House abbreviations

Post by PhilW » 11:24 Mon 01 Aug 2016

jdaw1 wrote:
PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
Glenn E. wrote:Cockburn Quinta dos Canais should be CkC, not CC
Croft Quinta da Roeda should be CrR, not CR
Messias Quinta do Cachão should be MsC, not MC.

General rule: keep the Producer abbreviation intact when adding a qualifier.
General rule: brevity good. The rules conflict. There is precedent for CR ...
I missed the above in my first scan through the list, but agree with Glenn that the Producer abbreviation once defined should be kept the same whether with/without additions. This is a case of clarity over brevity for me. Note that even JDAW sometimes appear to favour clarity over brevity (TVVV where TVV would be sufficient to be unique and shorter; but hence my argument for ChAA - even if ChA may have appeared previously).
Good spot on the inconsistency, which I’d rather resolve by shortening TVVV to TVV. Am I alone?
I hope so. If you're not, there are a number of other places where you have favoured clarity over brevity; I'm hesitant to point them all out for fear of making the list less readable; Please just give in ;)

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