Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

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Andy Velebil
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Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by Andy Velebil »

JacobH wrote: 11:38 Wed 08 Jul 2020
Andy Velebil wrote: 14:06 Tue 07 Jul 2020 Co-fermenting never did stop. Subsided some when block planting gained fashion. My understanding is some producers are going back to co-fermenting more often than in the recent past.

My opinion...I think producers have learned that either extreme (block planting and field blends) aren't the sole answer, but some mix of both have their place.
Assuming that you have capacity to ferment, fortify and store them separately, what is the advance of co-fermenting two types of grapes together? I can’t really work it out, conceptually, in my mind! I appreciate field blends are a different proposition altogether.
Here's a good article on it that can explain it way better than I.

https://www.winemag.com/2020/01/07/co-f ... nes-guide/
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JacobH
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Re: 2018 Quinta do Vesuvio Vintage Port (Cask Sample)

Post by JacobH »

Thanks! (Although I'm afraid that that is making me tend towards thinking of it as a buzzword rather than anything substantive....)
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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: 2018 Quinta do Vesuvio Vintage Port (Cask Sample)

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Different winemakers swear by co-fermentation or by varietal fermentation. The view of the former is you get a wine where the flavours and characters are better integrated. The view of the latter is that you get wines which give a purer expression of the grape variety.

In both cases, fermentation will be followed - at some point - by blending.

It is interesting talking to the different winemakers about their preference for co-fermentation or for varietal fermentation and this difference in view is found all over the world. I recently listened to a discussion by a Californian wine-maker who talked about how carefully they picked by variety from mixed field blends to ferment each variety separately. As consumers I love the fact we have a choice; I'm just not sure my palate is as good as that of the winemaker who can taste a difference!
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JacobH
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Re: 2018 Quinta do Vesuvio Vintage Port (Cask Sample)

Post by JacobH »

AHB wrote: 18:05 Thu 09 Jul 2020As consumers I love the fact we have a choice; I'm just not sure my palate is as good as that of the winemaker who can taste a difference!
I’m interested in your views as a chemist! :wink: One aspect of modern winemaking that I struggle to understand is the jettisoning of science for a load of subjective beliefs which do not stand up to scientific scrutiny (e.g. it is important to decant of the lees during the right phase of the moon due to its gravitational pull on the sediment). It’s not a massive feature of Port, yet, but then Port is produced in a considerably more traditional way than almost any other classic wine so I don’t think there is much necessity to invent new traditions.
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uncle tom
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by uncle tom »

Single varietal growing, harvesting and fermentation seemed to tick all the boxes marked 'logic'. You could monitor your crop, harvest at the perfect moment and, hey presto! - create the best possible wine.

And whilst this may well be the optimum strategy for table wines in France and other countries, there has been a nagging feeling amongst many in the Douro that this wasn't creating better port wines than the old 'field mix' system.

Those who have championed varietal plantings are reluctant to admit that their strategy is wrong, but most of them have extended the number of varieties being planted in recent years, which hints at a tacit admission that the 'new order' wasn't perfect.

I am not greatly convinced by the argument that mixing varieties at fermentation is in itself the reason for the superior performance of the field mix, but I do find the argument that vinifying perfectly ripe grapes with a percentage that are over-ripe and a percentage that are under-ripe - a situation that arises when different varieties with different maturation habits get harvested together - a pretty plausible explanation.

The varietal planting enthusiasts could of course mimic this, but given the frenetic nature of harvest, and the eternal problem of finding enough manpower at that time, sticking to field mixes (but possibly planned mixes with prescribed percentages of each variety) may well be the more practical option..
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JacobH
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by JacobH »

uncle tom wrote: 20:19 Thu 09 Jul 2020Those who have championed varietal plantings are reluctant to admit that their strategy is wrong, but most of them have extended the number of varieties being planted in recent years, which hints at a tacit admission that the 'new order' wasn't perfect.

I am not greatly convinced by the argument that mixing varieties at fermentation is in itself the reason for the superior performance of the field mix, but I do find the argument that vinifying perfectly ripe grapes with a percentage that are over-ripe and a percentage that are under-ripe - a situation that arises when different varieties with different maturation habits get harvested together - a pretty plausible explanation.
These are good points. I also wonder if there is something in the planting of a mixed vineyard? Presumably you would not plant in a completely random way and so might put in the varietals that are more heat tolerant in the more exposed parts; or the ones that are more drought tolerant in the extremities away from the water channels?

Also, of course, the idea that the Port blend is dominated by the duopoly of touriga nacional and touriga francesa is relatively new, too.

But these are all arguments for field blends rather than co-fermentation of two grapes which were block planted!
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uncle tom
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by uncle tom »

Presumably you would not plant in a completely random way
Whilst I stand to be corrected, my understanding is that the small farmers of old filled gaps in their vineyards by propagating from the nearest living vine, often by layering (pegging down a shoot from an adjoining vine). Post phylloxera, they needed to use rootstocks and grafting, which was a little more involved, but even then, I suspect that after establishing the root stock, they grafted on to it with a cutting from the nearest healthy vine, with little regard to it's variety.
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JacobH
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by JacobH »

That's interesting. Would it not produce a similar result over time via natural selection since badly placed varietals would die off (or be dug out) with their spaces to be filled cuttings or layerings from their happier neighbours?
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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Apologies to all. I split this discussion from the Vesuvio 2018 cask sampletasting note thread and then disappeared. I thought this discussion was worthy of a thread in its own right.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Alex Bridgeman
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Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

JacobH wrote: 18:22 Thu 09 Jul 2020
AHB wrote: 18:05 Thu 09 Jul 2020As consumers I love the fact we have a choice; I'm just not sure my palate is as good as that of the winemaker who can taste a difference!
I’m interested in your views as a chemist! :wink: One aspect of modern winemaking that I struggle to understand is the jettisoning of science for a load of subjective beliefs which do not stand up to scientific scrutiny (e.g. it is important to decant of the lees during the right phase of the moon due to its gravitational pull on the sediment). It’s not a massive feature of Port, yet, but then Port is produced in a considerably more traditional way than almost any other classic wine so I don’t think there is much necessity to invent new traditions.
As a (former) chemist I would expect a very slight and very subtle difference in the chemistry of a co-fermented parcel of two grapes from that of a two parcels of grapes fermented individually and then blended. It's clear there's a chemical process which takes place when the sugar in grapes is converted to alcohol and a whole load of other small chemical reactions must take place at the same time. The chemical differences between different grape varietals must be tiny, but it is entirely possible that when combined together these tiny differences react very slightly differently than when kept apart during fermentation.

Most winemakers have incredible numbers of taste sensors and can pick up nuances that are way beyond my ability to detect. I'm happy to accept they find differences in flavour from co-fermented parcels or single varietal and blended parcels and then it becomes another variable for the winemaker to play with as they put together a wine which they like and which, hopefully, we also like.

As for biodynamics, I'm less convinced. I suspect that much of the perceived increased quality of a biodynamically farmed and produced wine comes from the fact that the vigneron has to pay so much more attention to the crop and production because of the lack of use of time saving interventions. It's a bit like my choice with my gooseberry bushes - do I remove sawfly larvae by hand or do I spray. I only have two gooseberry bushes so I do it by hand. If I had a field of bushes I'd probably spray. I also only harvest during the proper phase of the moon - i.e. when it's not raining.

The discussion about single varietal block planting compared with mixed field blends is another discussion. Field blends came about because it was the best way for a small grape farmer to ensure he was able to produce a decent quality crop in most years. Different weather conditions would support different varieties reaching optimum ripeness, but in most years you had a mix of over-ripe, ripe and under-ripe grapes as Tom has said - unless the grape farmer was able to make several passes through his vineyard (which is what Noval do with the mixed vine Nacional vineyard). David Guimaraens and others are convinced that grape varieties which are co-planted mature differently and at different times than the same variety planted in a varietal block. I don't have enough knowledge to be able to comment, but there is some research online from UC Davis and other places about mixed variety planting and whether the plants interact with each other chemically and through the micro-organism they support in the soil.

But mostly I am just a romantic. I love the idea of old field blends, of co-fermentation of the field blends and a great Port being produced through the skill and artisanship of the grape growers and winemaker. Sadly, I also accept that while this approach worked 175 years ago, it's probably not going to work today.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

uncle tom wrote: 21:12 Thu 09 Jul 2020
Presumably you would not plant in a completely random way
Whilst I stand to be corrected, my understanding is that the small farmers of old filled gaps in their vineyards by propagating from the nearest living vine, often by layering (pegging down a shoot from an adjoining vine). Post phylloxera, they needed to use rootstocks and grafting, which was a little more involved, but even then, I suspect that after establishing the root stock, they grafted on to it with a cutting from the nearest healthy vine, with little regard to it's variety.
My understanding is that these days it depends on whether the orginal rootstock is being used or american rootsock. If the original rootstock it tends to be a cutting from the vine which is dying unless it is diseased - if it's phylloxera which is killing the vine off a cutting rooted into a louse free soil can establish itself over a year or two to be strong enough to get put into the ground.

If on grafted rootstock, I've no idea. What you say makes sense.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by JacobH »

AHB wrote: 08:45 Fri 10 Jul 2020But mostly I am just a romantic. I love the idea of old field blends, of co-fermentation of the field blends and a great Port being produced through the skill and artisanship of the grape growers and winemaker. Sadly, I also accept that while this approach worked 175 years ago, it's probably not going to work today.
I complete agree with you on this one. And of course, we are very fortunate that there are still a lot of Ports that are made in an almost completely unchanged way from the days when Barron Forrester lost the argument and it became a fortified wine.

It often strikes me that the technological developments are perhaps not ones particularly for the top end of the market: we all know that in the best years the best vineyards can produce high quality Port and have been able to do so for hundreds of years. Where I think it really helps is making better wines in weaker years or from weaker vineyards. Even simple things like if there is a late heat-wave, with a temperature controlled lagar you can have nice controlled fermentation rather than everything running away as used to happen.
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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Very true. And the modern lagares, with their automated treading, will allow producers to continue to make Port even if there are no people willing to foot-tread the grapes. Which might well be the case this harvest.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by uncle tom »

AHB wrote: 15:35 Fri 10 Jul 2020 Very true. And the modern lagares, with their automated treading, will allow producers to continue to make Port even if there are no people willing to foot-tread the grapes. Which might well be the case this harvest.
A question..

Do the producers have sufficient vinification capacity to dispense with foot treading entirely for a season?
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JacobH
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by JacobH »

An interesting question. When we asked about their plans at the virtual Churchill tasting, it sounded like they were going to try to make foot treading work somehow, although I don't get the impression they'd worked out how. It hadn't crossed my mind that they might not have the capacity to do it mechanically.
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Some producers have sufficient modern lagar capacity to be able to produce a harvest entirely trodden by machine. Others don’t and will have to have some foot treading in order to be able to produce wine.

It is possible that some independent producers might be looking at options to sell grapes and benefício this harvest. I’m sure we’ll hear more details nearer the end of August.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Re: 2018 Quinta do Vesuvio Vintage Port (Cask Sample)

Post by jdaw1 »

JacobH wrote: 18:22 Thu 09 Jul 2020it is important to decant of the lees during the right phase of the moon due to its gravitational pull on the sediment)
Ancient traditions.
Patrick Guimaraens of H. Parrot & Sons, then London agents of Fonseca wrote:… before bottling. It is always nice to choose a bright, fresh day with cloudless sky and possibly a north/north east wind blowing to do this operation.
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JacobH
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by JacobH »

That’s very amusing. Where did you find that?
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by jdaw1 »

JacobH wrote: 09:36 Mon 13 Jul 2020That’s very amusing. Where did you find that?
Page 583.

Edited after Jacob’s comment, immediately following: Page 583 of Port Vintages (2018). By me.
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JacobH
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by JacobH »

I like the fact that having completed your research you are firmly pulling up the drawbridge for future generations by including only cryptic citations!

(I am sure you will be even more pleased that that is the second time I’ve consulted The Book today!)
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JacobH
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by JacobH »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 08:50 Fri 10 Jul 2020
uncle tom wrote: 21:12 Thu 09 Jul 2020
Presumably you would not plant in a completely random way
Whilst I stand to be corrected, my understanding is that the small farmers of old filled gaps in their vineyards by propagating from the nearest living vine, often by layering (pegging down a shoot from an adjoining vine). Post phylloxera, they needed to use rootstocks and grafting, which was a little more involved, but even then, I suspect that after establishing the root stock, they grafted on to it with a cutting from the nearest healthy vine, with little regard to it's variety.
My understanding is that these days it depends on whether the orginal rootstock is being used or american rootsock. If the original rootstock it tends to be a cutting from the vine which is dying unless it is diseased - if it's phylloxera which is killing the vine off a cutting rooted into a louse free soil can establish itself over a year or two to be strong enough to get put into the ground.

If on grafted rootstock, I've no idea. What you say makes sense.
I saw a photograph on Twitter from Kranemann of them doing some layering in exactly the way that Tom & Alex describe: pegging down a stem from a healthy vine to produce a new ungrafted plant. Although it is not the most impressive thing to look at, I thought it was quite interesting since I’ve never seen that done before.
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by Glenn E. »

Presumably you would not plant in a completely random way
And yet...

Quinta do Crasto undertook and has completed a total genetic identification of their most valuable vineyard: Maria Teresa. They went through and mapped the entire vineyard, vine by vine, and genetically identified each one. They they took cuttings of every vine and planted them elsewhere to ensure that, should any vine in their most valuable property die, they could replace it.

I almost all cases, they knew the answer before the genetic identification came back. Almost all. There was one particular vine in one corner of the field that no one could identify. Much discussion ensued over many days to no avail. Then one day, during one discussion, one of the older farm hands wandered by and heard the conversation. Intrigued, he interrupted and asked what they were talking about. They told him, and he said "do you mean this vine from this corner of this vineyard?" Amazed, they confirmed he was correct. He replied, "Oh, that's [something Portuguese]. My great grandfather planted that vine."

So while it can be said that Maria Teresa is no longer random - it is in fact carefully recorded and diligently maintained to stay exactly the same into the future - it was likely at least somewhat randomly planted to start. Or at least only randomly maintained through the years.
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JacobH
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Re: Co-fermentation and Biodynamics

Post by JacobH »

Glenn E. wrote: 19:17 Thu 11 Feb 2021Amazed, they confirmed he was correct. He replied, "Oh, that's [something Portuguese]. My great grandfather planted that vine."
I hope the Portuguese was “Tinto sem Nome” which is a legitimate grape variety under the IVDP regulations!
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