The last 5 years: good luck or an improvement?

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Andy Velebil
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Re: The last 5 years: good luck or an improvement?

Post by Andy Velebil »

uncle tom wrote:
Were they using different corks for Gould than for Dow?!
It would be natural to assume that the corks used by a brand would likely be similar to other brands owned by the same company, but if you compare the original corks of Taylor '77 and Fonseca '77, the difference is stark. F77 corks are almost all very sound whereas the T77 original corks (late releases appear to be entirely re-corked) are some of the worst corks ever used on VP
This would be impossible to guess. Companies rarely use the same corks across all their products. Price points of different Ports and availability of corks are just two simple reasons. Then you’ve got rejected lots and reorders. Different bottle shapes needing a diff cork. Is it meant to be a short term ager vs a very long term ager. Used different cork companies. One bottled before the other and a new lot of corks bought. How were the corks stored before use. And the list goes on and on.
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uncle tom
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Re: The last 5 years: good luck or an improvement?

Post by uncle tom »

Virtually everyone had issues to varying degrees.
The port producers had been used to getting the best corks for the best price. When the small cork producers amalgamated, you got what you paid for. The export markets paid for the best quality and the port producers got what was left over.

The odd bit is that it was several years before the port producers really accepted the need to pay more. I get the impression that most of the producers were cost-cutting wherever possible between '75 and '85
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MigSU
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Re: The last 5 years: good luck or an improvement?

Post by MigSU »

uncle tom wrote: 09:25 Tue 18 May 2021
Virtually everyone had issues to varying degrees.
The port producers had been used to getting the best corks for the best price. When the small cork producers amalgamated, you got what you paid for. The export markets paid for the best quality and the port producers got what was left over.

The odd bit is that it was several years before the port producers really accepted the need to pay more. I get the impression that most of the producers were cost-cutting wherever possible between '75 and '85
That decade was very volatile in Portugal, socially and economically. The revolution was in 1974, and accession to the ECC/EU was in 1986. The intervening decade was a bit of a wild west.
Andy Velebil
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Re: The last 5 years: good luck or an improvement?

Post by Andy Velebil »

uncle tom wrote:
The port producers had been used to getting the best corks for the best price. When the small cork producers amalgamated, you got what you paid for. The export markets paid for the best quality and the port producers got what was left over.

The odd bit is that it was several years before the port producers really accepted the need to pay more. I get the impression that most of the producers were cost-cutting wherever possible between '75 and '85
Tom
Is this your opinion or a fact you’ve been told by a producer? And what small cork producers are you referring to?
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uncle tom
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Re: The last 5 years: good luck or an improvement?

Post by uncle tom »

Is this your opinion or a fact you’ve been told by a producer? And what small cork producers are you referring to?
It's been pretty well documented in the past on this forum - and yes, I've heard it first hand from the producers. I've been told that during this period some of the best Portuguese corks went to Australia, where the local winemakers were making a concerted effort to improve the image of their products.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
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JacobH
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Re: The last 5 years: good luck or an improvement?

Post by JacobH »

Andy Velebil wrote: 04:52 Tue 18 May 2021 It would be natural to assume that the corks used by a brand would likely be similar to other brands owned by the same company, but if you compare the original corks of Taylor '77 and Fonseca '77, the difference is stark. F77 corks are almost all very sound whereas the T77 original corks (late releases appear to be entirely re-corked) are some of the worst corks ever used on VP
This would be impossible to guess. Companies rarely use the same corks across all their products. Price points of different Ports and availability of corks are just two simple reasons. Then you’ve got rejected lots and reorders. Different bottle shapes needing a diff cork. Is it meant to be a short term ager vs a very long term ager. Used different cork companies. One bottled before the other and a new lot of corks bought. How were the corks stored before use. And the list goes on and on.
[/quote]I suppose another issue is how much the separate brands that are owned by each shipper are run as if they were separate companies, with their own supply chains, etc., and how much they have been centralised as mere brands. When I was looking at some of Companies House documents in relation to Dow’s last year, I was surprised that they only seemed to fold the UK the last bits of the British company back into Portugal in 2017.
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JacobH
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Re: The last 5 years: good luck or an improvement?

Post by JacobH »

jdaw1 wrote: 13:38 Sun 16 May 2021
JacobH wrote: 20:10 Mon 18 Jan 2021This can be contrasted with the Edmund Burke school of Port history which holds that phylloxera destroyed everything that was good and we will never have anything like that again.
Did Burke really believe that we shall never again achieve the feats of the ancients? This is not my expertise: wha did he say that reveals that to be his opinion?
I am almost certain that it has no real basis in proper historiographical study. But I am not sure and should look into it some more.

For the classic example of Burkean Port-writing, see this comment from André L Simon which I have just posted elsewhere:

When describing the quality of the Ports from the 1920s in the 1930s, he comments that the Graham 1922 had, by 1939, “gone the way of all good things and very quickly; it was delicious even if not Vintage Port in the true sense of the word”. Equally, the Fonseca 1922 and 1927 were both “acceptable and freely drunk” by 1939 “after a mere ten years in the bottle”. Finally, when he drank a Graham 1924 with friends in 1938 they were “wondering at its being so ‘ready’ to drink”.

The conclusion? “The days of the ‘black-strap’ Ports are gone and gone for ever”. (Emphasis added).
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Chris Doty
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Re: The last 5 years: good luck or an improvement?

Post by Chris Doty »

Andy Velebil wrote: 04:46 Tue 18 May 2021

Not fair to blame the Sym’s. Virtually everyone had issues to varying degrees. 77 Fonseca and Taylor’s have massive issues due to corks as well, to name just one other company.
I don’t have time for “blame”

I’ve paid money for many many 1977 vintage port

I learned my lessons

Fwiw, fonseca and niepoort only 1977 never failed, though it’s a smaller sample size sadly than my Dow.
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