2019 Declarations

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JacobH
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by JacobH »

It's a similar story at Croft. Although almost all the publicity refers to Quinta da Roêda, the bottle labels have it spelt Roeda. What's particularly odd is that Sērikos always appears with the ē which I think is a stress mark from the transliterated Greek rather than anything to do with Portuguese... (But I may be wrong about that!)
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Axel P
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Re: 2019 Declarations

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Glenn E.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by Glenn E. »

How odd... why does Quinta do Passadouro need a ® but Quinta do Noval does not?

Makes me suspicious about what it really is.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by PCM »

Glenn E. wrote: 17:53 Mon 19 Apr 2021 How odd... why does Quinta do Passadouro need a ® but Quinta do Noval does not?

Makes me suspicious about what it really is.
There is no need to be so suspicious Glenn: Passadouro already had the "registered trademark" when they were not owned by Quinta do Noval, so they just didn't change the label.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by Glenn E. »

PCM wrote: 20:30 Mon 19 Apr 2021
Glenn E. wrote: 17:53 Mon 19 Apr 2021 How odd... why does Quinta do Passadouro need a ® but Quinta do Noval does not?

Makes me suspicious about what it really is.
There is no need to be so suspicious Glenn: Passadouro already had the "registered trademark" when they were not owned by Quinta do Noval, so they just didn't change the label.
Really? I'd never noticed it before. I guess I just wasn't paying attention!

(Either that or the fact that I had to deal with several "legalese" style questions today may have put me in the frame of mind to notice things like this.)
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by JacobH »

Has Christian Seely ever discussed what his approach to declarations is, these days? I think they have now declared every year since 2011 (inclusive). I get the impression that they think it is worth declaring any year when they have good enough Port, even if it only means that they can release quite small quantities of it. I presume it follows that they feel like they don’t need to hang onto VP-quality wine from minor years for some other purpose and also that it won’t harm their reputation if VP is put out every year.
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JacobH
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by JacobH »

Glenn E. wrote: 21:42 Mon 19 Apr 2021Really? I'd never noticed it before. I guess I just wasn't paying attention!

(Either that or the fact that I had to deal with several "legalese" style questions today may have put me in the frame of mind to notice things like this.)
It still looks odd to me seeing a Passadouro label on Noval press-release! I expect the reason is that the Passadouro label was a specially designed logotype so they went to the trouble of registering it whereas Noval uses all sorts of different things depending on the type of wine etc.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by Glenn E. »

JacobH wrote: 08:58 Tue 20 Apr 2021
Glenn E. wrote: 21:42 Mon 19 Apr 2021Really? I'd never noticed it before. I guess I just wasn't paying attention!

(Either that or the fact that I had to deal with several "legalese" style questions today may have put me in the frame of mind to notice things like this.)
It still looks odd to me seeing a Passadouro label on Noval press-release! I expect the reason is that the Passadouro label was a specially designed logotype so they went to the trouble of registering it whereas Noval uses all sorts of different things depending on the type of wine etc.
It still seems odd to me. In the US, at least as far as I understand it from dealing with product licenses, a word mark applies regardless of the font used, and a property mark applies regardless of the words written. The ® on the label would almost certainly be for a word mark, as the legalese for a trademarked font would be in the legal text on the back label.

I suppose it could be a trademarked logo, but that still seems odd to me.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by PhilW »

It's not St. George's day yet, but TFP have today announced FG19, TTF19 and CrR19, all being held for late release.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by JacobH »

PhilW wrote: 08:34 Wed 21 Apr 2021 It's not St. George's day yet, but TFP have today announced FG19, TTF19 and CrR19, all being held for late release.
Also a Vargellas, too, I think.
Glenn E. wrote: 17:27 Tue 20 Apr 2021It still seems odd to me. In the US, at least as far as I understand it from dealing with product licenses, a word mark applies regardless of the font used, and a property mark applies regardless of the words written. The ® on the label would almost certainly be for a word mark, as the legalese for a trademarked font would be in the legal text on the back label.

I suppose it could be a trademarked logo, but that still seems odd to me.
Having had a quick look into it, they registered the logo as a logo (a “figurative” mark) back in 1996 and then registered the name “Quinta do Passadouro” as text back in 1998. Slightly odd they didn’t do both at the same time. Also slightly odd that they thought it was necessary to bother with registration in any event. I can’t see that Noval has (although I might have missed it).
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by PhilW »

JacobH wrote: 08:40 Wed 21 Apr 2021
PhilW wrote: 08:34 Wed 21 Apr 2021 It's not St. George's day yet, but TFP have today announced FG19, TTF19 and CrR19, all being held for late release.
Also a Vargellas, too, I think.
You're right, I missed that one; TV19 as well.
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JacobH
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by JacobH »

Incidentally, I think it’s quite a few years since TFP haven’t released any SQVP en primeur. I know that most of it goes out when it is about 10-15 years old but I think some has generally also been available on release. I wonder if, having declared so many vintages in a row, they are worried about running out of things to sell if we hit a bad run of vintages over the next few years?
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Andy Velebil
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by Andy Velebil »

JacobH wrote:Incidentally, I think it’s quite a few years since TFP haven’t released any SQVP en primeur. I know that most of it goes out when it is about 10-15 years old but I think some has generally also been available on release. I wonder if, having declared so many vintages in a row, they are worried about running out of things to sell if we hit a bad run of vintages over the next few years?
Are you sure? I know the Sym’s often hold back QVP’s, but I recall TFP releasing all their QVP’s (and FG) the same year they announce it. When was the last time they held back for a decade or more?
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JacobH
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by JacobH »

Andy Velebil wrote: 18:51 Wed 21 Apr 2021
JacobH wrote:Incidentally, I think it’s quite a few years since TFP haven’t released any SQVP en primeur. I know that most of it goes out when it is about 10-15 years old but I think some has generally also been available on release. I wonder if, having declared so many vintages in a row, they are worried about running out of things to sell if we hit a bad run of vintages over the next few years?
Are you sure? I know the Sym’s often hold back QVP’s, but I recall TFP releasing all their QVP’s (and FG) the same year they announce it. When was the last time they held back for a decade or more?
I assumed they did a mixture: sell some when they declare it but hold back a stock to sell to big retailers later. For example, Majestic (big chain of wine merchants) is selling the 2005 Taylor QdTF & QdV at the moment. Of the supermarkets which advertise a vintage, Ocado & Waitrose are both advertising the 2008 QdV and looking at “Christmas Port” articles, I can see recommendations for the 2004 for Christmas 2019. I can’t imagine that any of these places have been cellaring these Ports for about a decade before selling them and assumed they must be getting them aged from TFP.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by forest26 »

Oscar Quevedo has declared his 2019 VP
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Re: RE: Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by rich_n »

forest26 wrote:Oscar Quevedo has declared his 2019 VP
What was the last year that Oscar didn't declare a vintage? Is this 5 in a row now?
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by JacobH »

rich_n wrote: 19:52 Fri 30 Apr 2021
forest26 wrote:Oscar Quevedo has declared his 2019 VP
What was the last year that Oscar didn't declare a vintage? Is this 5 in a row now?
2013 judging by the previous posts on :tpf:, so I guess that makes it six? Some quantities have been really tiny, though. I guess they, like Noval, are going down a route of putting one whenever they have the grapes, irrespective of quantity?
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by Chris Doty »

JacobH wrote: 21:26 Fri 30 Apr 2021 I guess (Quevedo), like Noval, are going down a route of putting one whenever they have the grapes, irrespective of quantity?
I’ve thought about this about as deeply as I think about anything (which is to say not very) and I’ve come to appreciate this philosophy. If the wine meets their standard for quality and reflects the unique vintage character, let’s have it! If it’s good, we shall have some more. If not, we can crack an 11.

Hope y’all staying sane in these maddening times. Mercifully you can only become mad once.

Woo woo
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rich_n
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by rich_n »

I definitely don't mind a producer making a VP any year they think they have a wine that's strong enough, and I've enjoyed the Quevedo I've had so far. I'd guess as a relatively young business this gives them a better chance of establishing themselves more broadly as consumers might take a chance on them in a "down" year like 2015 where most don't declare a full VP.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by Doggett »

I am not sure Quevedo have declared as often as Noval has in the last decade or so... easy to check just haven’t got to it yet, but I would guess that the Noval declarations would be similar if not more.

EDIT

Ps. But I agree with the Great Mr. Doty. If the juice is good enough, then declare it and offer it to your customers. If the juice is not of sufficient quality then you may some have short term wins at the expense of long term losses due to reputations damage. In the case of Quevedo, I think the port I have tried for the last few years, very much deserved to be declared. There has been a purple patch of harvests in the Douro though, for whatever reason.
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JacobH
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by JacobH »

It seems to me that history has demonstrated that it is only very rare that a vintage is so bad that it is impossible to produce vintage Port. Perhaps 3 or 4 times a century? That makes me think that declaring 3 times a decade is as much a business model as anything else. (At least in recent years: I fully accept that in the past things were probably harder.)

I suppose for the long-established companies, the question is whether they profit more from the scarcity of not declaring regularly than they would from producing one each year? I imagine those considerations don’t apply to Quevedo or any of the younger companies.

That’s why I think Noval is interesting since it is one of the few traditional shippers that seems to have shifted. Although, I think I am right in saying that it has a history of idiosyncratic declarations. And, of course, unlike many of the larger companies, they don’t really have a SQVP for secondary years.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by MigSU »

Yes, but the question is (and, I think, has always been): what kind of vintage do you want to make? Are you happy to make 'passable' vintage ports, or do you only want to make outstanding vintage ports?

I'm sure we can all agree that a 2002 or a 2006 aren't quite up to the standard of a 2000 or a 2011. So the question comes down to whether you want to make 2002-quality vintages or would you prefer to leave that to SQVP's and only make your main vintages on good/great years.
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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

I would put it a different way. If I could make 2011 outstanding quality Vintage Port every year, I would. Even if that meant in one year I could make 10,000 bottles but in another year I could only make 250 bottles.

I would never make “passable” Vintage Port. If there was a year when I couldn’t make outstanding Vintage Port, I would put all my juice into other kinds of Port.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by MigSU »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 19:04 Mon 03 May 2021 I would put it a different way. If I could make 2011 outstanding quality Vintage Port every year, I would. Even if that meant in one year I could make 10,000 bottles but in another year I could only make 250 bottles.

I would never make “passable” Vintage Port. If there was a year when I couldn’t make outstanding Vintage Port, I would put all my juice into other kinds of Port.
I seriously doubt Noval could make even 1 bottle in 2014 that was on the level of their 2000 or 2011. Yet they released a VP in 2014. I don't know how many bottles they released, but, as I said in the beginning, I doubt even 1 of them is on par with their best years.
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Alex Bridgeman
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Re: 2019 Declarations

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Now there is an interesting discussion. Noval’s 2014 is a very good Port. It’s a very different style from the 2011 - should they be compared? Do you compare a Montrachet against an Aussie Shiraz to decide which one of the two is great and which is not? Or can you say they are both great but different?

I have drunk all of the Noval VPs since AXA took over and I have not been disappointed by any one of them. Some are better than others, but I consider all of them to be worthy of the label of “Vintage Port”.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
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