A newbie question on provenance

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sean.mcgrath
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A newbie question on provenance

Post by sean.mcgrath »

Hi all,

A longtime lurker here. I never registered as I rarely drink port (my cellar is stuffed with Bordeaux) -- I have simply enjoyed the rare combination of passion and military organization (jdaw1) on this site.

In any event, I have signed up to ask for a bit of guidance about provenance. I do buy port now and then when hosting UK friends, and am thinking it's time to have a stock of VP ready to drink (perhaps a case of 1977 or 1985). With Bordeaux I am a stickler for provenance -- typically en primeur, worst-case one négociant between me and the estate.

If I bought quantities of port I could take more risk, but one case doesn't really let me play the odds. I would hate for my only case to be a complete crap shoot. So two questions, really:
  • What is the best way to acquire older port with clear provenance? My thinking is BB&R. However, I have seen great selection on Crump, Richmond and Shaw, but I have never heard of them.
  • I do get that port is robust. Am I overthinking this?
cheers,
Sean
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jdaw1
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by jdaw1 »

Welcome.

How would you get perfect provenance for a 44-year-old Bordeaux? I.e., 1977. The answer is usually one of ++£, or taking some amount of judged risk. Ditto Port.

If the fill levels look good, and there aren't signs of heat of light, then it can be a joy. Many times, for me, it has been.

Summary: overthinking, yes, a bit.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by sean.mcgrath »

Thanks, jdaw -- I suspected that was the summary.

I can actually get Bordeaux back to the 80s with my approach. Earlier than that does start to get tricky.
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JacobH
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by JacobH »

I don't really know much about Bordeaux so forgive what might be a stupid question but are you worried about condition or authenticity when you mention provenance? The reason for asking is that I have read about counterfeit clarets but I don't think there anything really like that in the Port world, if you are interested in mainstream vintage Port from the 70s or later. (Might be a different story if you are after a full Quinta do Noval Nacional vertical!)

If you are worried about condition then I agree with Julian. You could also try buying two bottles of the same Port, one from BBR and one from a random broker and see if you think the premium is worth it.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by jdaw1 »

JacobH wrote: 22:15 Sat 15 May 2021You could also try buying two bottles of the same Port, one from BBR and one from a random broker and see if you think the premium is worth it.
Splendid suggestion. If you do this, please report details of the experiment, and conclusion, to this thread.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by sean.mcgrath »

JacobH wrote: 22:15 Sat 15 May 2021 are you worried about condition or authenticity when you mention provenance?

If you are worried about condition then I agree with Julian.
I was worried about condition, especially getting an entire case that is cooked or corked. I know people who only buy full cases of Bordeaux at auction, on the theory that when the first bottle is corked, someone might auction the rest. I have (once) bought a case of corked Bordeaux white which I only first tasted a few years later. Fortunately it was not expensive, and I have used them when people are curious what a corked bottle smells like.

jdaw1 wrote: 22:28 Sat 15 May 2021
JacobH wrote: 22:15 Sat 15 May 2021You could also try buying two bottles of the same Port, one from BBR and one from a random broker and see if you think the premium is worth it.
Splendid suggestion. If you do this, please report details of the experiment, and conclusion, to this thread.
It is an excellent suggestion, although I expect that your opinions have better statistical validity -- I already have my answer. If I do end up trying it, I will certainly report back.
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JacobH
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by JacobH »

sean.mcgrath wrote: 10:14 Sun 16 May 2021I was worried about condition, especially getting an entire case that is cooked or corked. I know people who only buy full cases of Bordeaux at auction, on the theory that when the first bottle is corked, someone might auction the rest. I have (once) bought a case of corked Bordeaux white which I only first tasted a few years later. Fortunately it was not expensive, and I have used them when people are curious what a corked bottle smells like.
I think Tom has said that he never buys cases of 5 or 11 for this reason. It seems sensible to me, although the one case of 5 I bought—many years ago—was absolutely fine. Of course, lots of Port gets sold by the bottle simply because people drink less of it.

I think you are more likely to get a case full of dead bottles from this era due to production rather than storage problems. There are which are infamous (e.g. the Cockburn 1983). There is a lot of discussion of them on this thread.

I’d be interested to know if anyone has bought a case of Port which isn’t known to be bad and found them all to be contaminated?
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by flash_uk »

JacobH wrote: 12:08 Sun 16 May 2021 I’d be interested to know if anyone has bought a case of Port which isn’t known to be bad and found them all to be contaminated?
I have 10 bottles each from cases of 12 of Dow 1983 and Dow 1985 which I suspect might all prove to be flawed. Some kind of bacterial thing, it is not TCA.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by sean.mcgrath »

flash_uk wrote: 19:45 Sun 16 May 2021
I have 10 bottles each from cases of 12 of Dow 1983 and Dow 1985 which I suspect might all prove to be flawed. Some kind of bacterial thing, it is not TCA.
So you bought opened cases with 10 wines left, and it seems they all are flawed? It's sad that someone might do that, but not a total surprise.

Purely hypothetically, I wonder whether there is any recourse. Do sellers make some kind of statement about the condition of the wine "to the best of their knowledge" before it is sold?
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by MigSU »

sean.mcgrath wrote: 10:38 Mon 17 May 2021
flash_uk wrote: 19:45 Sun 16 May 2021
I have 10 bottles each from cases of 12 of Dow 1983 and Dow 1985 which I suspect might all prove to be flawed. Some kind of bacterial thing, it is not TCA.
So you bought opened cases with 10 wines left, and it seems they all are flawed? It's sad that someone might do that, but not a total surprise.

Purely hypothetically, I wonder whether there is any recourse. Do sellers make some kind of statement about the condition of the wine "to the best of their knowledge" before it is sold?
Maybe he bought full cases and already drank two bottles of each.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by PhilW »

Hi Sean, and welcome to TPF.

In terms of trying to obtain impeccable provenance and minimise risk, I would suggest that your best bet would be to buy from a high-reputation retailer, and to ensure that the case you buy is in-bond, so you're essentially guaranteed that the case has been in well climate-controlled since bottling. You might also consider buying 6-bottle cases rather than 12-bottle (perhaps more relevant for the '85 as more common by then) to further minimise risk.

Some of the better retailers will refund replace a poor bottle, particularly if you have a good relationship with them so that there is mutual respect/trust; replacement of a case would presumably be a higher bar, though return/repurchase of the remainder perhaps more likely.

You propose buying a case of '77 or '85; If I may make two suggestions? First, buy '70 rather than '77; while the latter has some good ports there were also some cork issues affecting the major producers, but the former are almost all excellent - better wines and less issues. Second, rather than '70 or '85, buy both; they are at different stages of their evolution, and you may prefer one to the other, or enjoy the variation.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by sean.mcgrath »

PhilW wrote: 11:49 Mon 17 May 2021 Hi Sean, and welcome to TPF.

In terms of trying to obtain impeccable provenance and minimise risk, I would suggest that your best bet would be to buy from a high-reputation retailer, and to ensure that the case you buy is in-bond, so you're essentially guaranteed that the case has been in well climate-controlled since bottling. You might also consider buying 6-bottle cases rather than 12-bottle (perhaps more relevant for the '85 as more common by then) to further minimise risk.

Some of the better retailers will refund replace a poor bottle, particularly if you have a good relationship with them so that there is mutual respect/trust; replacement of a case would presumably be a higher bar, though return/repurchase of the remainder perhaps more likely.

You propose buying a case of '77 or '85; If I may make two suggestions? First, buy '70 rather than '77; while the latter has some good ports there were also some cork issues affecting the major producers, but the former are almost all excellent - better wines and less issues. Second, rather than '70 or '85, buy both; they are at different stages of their evolution, and you may prefer one to the other, or enjoy the variation.
Phil, thank you for the welcome and the inputs. That is very helpful.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by Alex Bridgeman »

Welcome Sean.

You’ve been given some great advice so far, which I can’t do much more than echo. I wouldn’t buy 1977 - too many bad bottles - and 1970 is such a good Port vintage. 1985 is another excellent choice of year, easy to find and still representing good value for money.

Wilkinson Vintners is an excellent source for top provenance Vintage Port. They have a happy knack of being able to persuade people with large, well maintained cellars to sell surplus stock through their listings.

BBX is generally not much help for Port with this much age since it is (supposedly) only available for sale of wines stored in bond with BBR since shipping, but you might get lucky.

Otherwise I’d buy in bond from one of the reputable bonded warehouse operators. You’d know the wines had been stored properly while with the operator and can ask when and where from the wine was deposited with them.

Seckfords run their own bonded warehouses and broke for their clients. Goedhuis clients store at Octavian.

Good luck, and please let us know what you decide to buy and where from.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.

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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by sean.mcgrath »

Thank you, Alex.

Yes, I appreciate the advice. I've decided to 1. get over my obsession with provenance and, since that means I no longer need to buy a case, 2. try a few different ages / vintages as suggested and 3. avoid 1977.

A bit by chance, I have bought two each of Croft '09 and Croft '03. I needed to fill out a box of 12 from idealWine, and they were available. I don't drink port often and am in no rush, so will keep an eye out and see what comes.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by sean.mcgrath »

Alex Bridgeman wrote: 09:34 Fri 21 May 2021 Otherwise I’d buy in bond from one of the reputable bonded warehouse operators. You’d know the wines had been stored properly while with the operator and can ask when and where from the wine was deposited with them.

Seckfords run their own bonded warehouses and broke for their clients. Goedhuis clients store at Octavian.

Good luck, and please let us know what you decide to buy and where from.
I just received a shipment, and realized that I had never updated the thread, two years on. I initially had a bit of a scattergun approach, buying from IdealWine (France) and BBR to fill up shipments. I finally settled on Seckfords, which has better selection and much better prices than either of them. The "reputable bonded warehouse operators" is the way to go, even when shipping to the Netherlands.

So far I have purchased the wines below. I have only tried the Croft '03 (a bit underwhelmed, seemed somewhat simple, lacking fruit). We'll have UK friends over soon, and I'm thinking about trying one of the older Fonsecas. Btw, I have absolutely no idea why I purchased the 1978: according to CT I wildly overpaid, and according to WS it is a mediocre wine -- the risks of placing an order at the end of an evening.

Code: Select all

Vintage	Qty	Wine
2009	2	Croft Porto Vintage
2003	3	Croft Porto Vintage

2000	1	Fonseca Porto Vintage
1994	6	Fonseca Porto Vintage
1985	6	Fonseca Porto Vintage

2007	1	Graham Porto Vintage
1994	1	Graham Porto Vintage

2000	6	Quinta de Roriz Porto Vintage

2017	2	Quinta do Noval Porto Vintage
2016	6	Quinta do Noval Porto Vintage

2011	6	Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Vintage
2000	6	Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Vintage
1978	1	Taylor (Fladgate) Porto Vintage Quinta de Vargellas
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by Glenn E. »

sean.mcgrath wrote: 19:34 Tue 04 Apr 2023 I have only tried the Croft '03 (a bit underwhelmed, seemed somewhat simple, lacking fruit).
I don't know whether or not you are aware, but Vintage Port tends to go through what we call a "down" phase that starts around 5-10 years after bottling and then lasts for perhaps 10-15 years. Very round numbers; it depends on vintage and producer, so varies quite a bit. This period is sometimes referred to as a Port's "teenage funk." One of the reasons for the tradition of tasting Vintage Port around its 20th or 21st birthday is to determine whether or not it has emerged from this down phase and what its prospects now seem to be. For some big, brutish, top-tier Ports it can take until they are 25 or sometimes even 30 years old to fully recover.

A 2003 Croft might still be in that down phase at a "mere" 20 years old, so there is considerable hope that it will improve soon-ish.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by Mike J. W. »

That's a nice list of Ports you have there. I'd recommend you try the '85 Fonseca. It's really just rounded into form over the last few years. Just make sure you give it a long decant.

As far as the '03 Croft, as someone else mentioned it's still too young IMHO. Give it another 5 to 10 years and then see what you think. Again, a long decant time (8 to 10 hours)

The '07 Graham is an excellent Port that's drinking nicely as a youngster, but will be absolutely stellar in another 15 years. I really like this Port.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by sean.mcgrath »

Thank you both. Yes, I'm used to dumb phases from other wines, but Port seems to take this to another level. I was hoping that is the story with my Croft. Looking forward to giving the '85 Fonseca a try now that Easter is around the corner.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by PhilW »

Hi Sean, interesting to see what decisions you made, thanks for posting a follow-up. The most obvious difference from your original post to now is that originally you were intending to buy 35-50 year old port, but your purchasing is almost all less than 30 years old (TV78 aside), with much of it <25 years. Is this a deliberate choice? BTW, I'm not suggesting this is wrong, it could be the right approach for many reasons such as you've discovered you prefer younger port, you're simply planning your port purchase to buy lower for maturity later, or indeed that you've drunk most of the older port that you bought so far.

I'm just curious, especially because of your comment on the Croft 2003 which of course is only 20 years old, much younger than your originally proposed target which I thought might have been based on port you'd tried elsewhere and enjoyed. As others have said, at that age the Croft is still immature, and might still be in its closed down phase; the guide for entering early maturity used to be 21 years, although personally I think that this is closer to 25 years (whether this is due to changes in production techniques I do not know). Even if it starting to enter the mature window, a very young mature port of 25 years will also taste much different to a more mature port of say 35-40 years, so personal preference then comes into account, depending whether you prefer fuller fruit and tannins, or more complexity etc.

Will be very interested to hear what you think when you open the Fonseca 1985 later this month.
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Re: A newbie question on provenance

Post by sean.mcgrath »

Hi Phil,

Yes, it is amusing to look at my plan vs. actual. The original idea was to purchase a case of 'ready to drink' vintage port, put it in the cellar, and problem solved for the next five years or so. This was always hopelessly naïve -- once I buy some port, of course I will want to explore. Also, thanks to this thread (particularly comments by you and Alex), I:
decided to 1. get over my obsession with provenance and, since that means I no longer need to buy a case, 2. try a few different ages / vintages as suggested and 3. avoid 1977.

But yes, I then went a bit broad on the "different ages / vintages." I was generally filling up shipments from idealWine and BBR, and grabbed what I found. There was so much good press about the '16 and '17 that I couldn't resist. So no, it's not deliberate or based on preferences (if Bordeaux and Sauternes are anything to go by, I will have a strong preference for aged). I tried the Croft '03 because it was there, and WS/JS suggested a drinking window starting 2015. Live and learn.

My port experience is more or less having bought Tawny for visitors about five years ago, liking it, and going through a fair amount of Dow 10 yr. old until the price literally doubled (!). I plan to organize a tasting with family and friends this December when our eldest son comes home. I'll try a mix of vintages, tawny, LBV and ruby. It's fun to explore the tastes of my 'customers' as well as my own. I did this with Sauternes a few years ago, and was surprised to learn that almost half the tasters clearly preferred their Sauternes young and fresh. If the same proves true for port, that's one option. Worst case, our boys end up with them.

Sean
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