1997 Maturity Evaluation, TBH, Mon 16 June 2014

Organise events to meet up and drink Port.
User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15594
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by DRT » 23:58 Tue 05 Nov 2013

jdaw1 wrote:
Axel P wrote:My suggestion would be to compare 94 and 97. Dont you think that this might make sense? As the 94s turn 20years next year. Since they are not too expensive even a comparateable tasting should be somewhat reasoneable.
Part of DRT’s stated purpose is to test which shippers, perhaps minor shippers, need to be drunk soon, and which shippers need patience. Including the minor shippers means this event might have 20+ bottles. Doubling that to include the ’94s might be, well, fabulous, but also hard work.
I applaud Axel's enthusiasm but agree with JDAW that the purpose of this is to evaluate the 1997 vintage, which is sufficient work for one evening.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 22175
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by jdaw1 » 00:06 Wed 06 Nov 2013

DRT wrote:One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.
I was offering one of the double magnums. Do we really want several double-magnums of SV97 at the same tasting? (‟Do we want!?”, not ‟Does Derek want!?”.)

Precisely what should be done with the one double magnum?

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15594
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by DRT » 01:04 Wed 06 Nov 2013

jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.
I was offering one of the double magnums. Do we really want several double-magnums of SV97 at the same tasting? (‟Do we want!?”, not ‟Does Derek want!?”.)

Precisely what should be done with the one double magnum?
It should be kept for this tasting, to be popped and poured if and when we we start to go thirsty.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Constantino 1927
Posts: 13001
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by Alex Bridgeman » 09:18 Wed 06 Nov 2013

DRT wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
DRT wrote:One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.
I was offering one of the double magnums. Do we really want several double-magnums of SV97 at the same tasting? (‟Do we want!?”, not ‟Does Derek want!?”.)

Precisely what should be done with the one double magnum?
It should be kept for this tasting, to be popped and poured if and when we we start to go thirsty.
URGENT:Lifestyle coach - we need urgent intervention!
Top Ports in 2019: Niepoort VV (1960s bottling) and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
Top Ports in 2020 (so far): Croft 1945 and Niepoort VV (1960s bottling)

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 22175
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by jdaw1 » 11:47 Wed 06 Nov 2013

AHB wrote:URGENT:Lifestyle coach - we need urgent intervention!
Why? Derek is allowed to watch us satiate our thirst.

User avatar
uncle tom
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3183
Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Near Saffron Walden, England

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by uncle tom » 19:01 Wed 06 Nov 2013

Depending on the date, I would be interested. My last serious encounter with the '97s was at Berry's two years ago, and I wasn't overly wowed. Time to re-visit.

Put me down for Vesuvio.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill

User avatar
Alex Bridgeman
Constantino 1927
Posts: 13001
Joined: 13:41 Mon 25 Jun 2007
Location: Berkshire, UK

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by Alex Bridgeman » 13:53 Thu 07 Nov 2013

uncle tom wrote:Put me down for Vesuvio.
Better put me down for the Martinez then.
Top Ports in 2019: Niepoort VV (1960s bottling) and Quinta do Noval Nacional 2017
Top Ports in 2020 (so far): Croft 1945 and Niepoort VV (1960s bottling)

User avatar
WS1
Cruz 1989
Posts: 1026
Joined: 23:08 Wed 04 Feb 2009
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by WS1 » 06:51 Fri 08 Nov 2013

DRT wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
AHB wrote:(I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big.)
I have two of the ’97 Vau double magnums to hand, which were at risk of being drunk at Christmas. Derek: if one is wanted for this tasting, speak soon. There could be decanting variations.
Yes, please. One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.
AHB wrote:I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big
No, it isn't. Please decant freehand into a single container.
Audouze when drinking himself through palats of old wine found out that rather just opening a bt, decanting it and then drinking it, it is better resting a bt, standing it up well in advance, opening the bt 3 hours in advance (just pull the cork), then decanting it ~10 -30 minutes before consumption made such a difference.
Applying different size containers to a double magnum of Vau 1997 will add in my eyes not a lot with regards to testing the Audouze opening technique. Assuming you use 1-2 halves and 1-2 bts and drinking the rest after opening it, the attempt to recork it would not change anything. If you wait e.g half a year after this refilling exercise you potentially get a closed wine again due to bt shock and the bt get tannin from new cork if applied. If you use half bts/bts with screw cap and fill it up to the top you can conserve for ~ 4-8 weeks the taste as the little air in the beginning does not change a lot. I do this a lot with younger wines since not wanting to drink a whole bt on the night or wanting to drink a red and a white wine in the evening in combination with food. But here it is not about giving the wine time it is rather about avoiding having to drink so much hence I use this approach.
Furthermore my experience with botteling a huge raft of bts when buying Cote du Rhone wine in bulk in various years is that you usually get the bt shock syndrome. I still have some in Magnum, full bt and half bt. The 2007s (fantastic year!) which are still closed down and the German corks I applied are good but have also contributed to the closed down phase they are in at the moment.
The only way to test Audouze approach is to test it on a regular basis on bts you know very well and compare from your experience or tasting notes how good they are being opened with the Audouze approach or without.

regards

WS1
"Sometimes too much to drink is barely enough"
Mark Twain

PhilW
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3111
Joined: 14:22 Wed 15 Dec 2010
Location: Near Cambridge, UK

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by PhilW » 09:12 Fri 08 Nov 2013

I agree that a tasting with bottle-pairs of Audouze would be a very interesting exercise, provided that we have sufficient bottles to outweigh normal statistical inter-bottle variation. If possible I suggest that should therefore mean:
- proven stock
- bottles from same case
- bottles with similar (good) fill level
- bottles of mature port
There is then of course the question of whether this method, if it provides advantage, does so more noticeable on either younger or older wines. Testing with a 70 or 77 sounds like a good plan.

User avatar
flash_uk
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3361
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by flash_uk » 22:47 Thu 03 Apr 2014

After some healthy debate during this event, appetite for a 97 horizontal was suitably reinvigorated, and I foolishly volunteered to take up the reins on organisation. As some time has passed since the roster of those interested was assembled, could everyone please reconfirm interest and I will refresh the roster at the top of the thread. The aforementioned healthy debate also determined that as wide a horizontal as possible would be preferable, to allow evaluation of which houses were potentially maturing more rapidly and could be considered for drinking sooner than later.

Now, here are some musings followed by some homework:
- roughly, if we can get say 30 bottles @ say an average of £50 each, and we have the usual max 14 people round the table, that's about £100 to drink about 1.5l of port each 88)
- 14 people at a table with tasting mats covering 30 glasses = big table
- we need to land a date for this...I will have a think about this, but to allow time to assemble juice, it may be more like June (healthy debate aforementioned was inconclusive as to whether 30 houses of port in June was unnatural...)
- listed below is a starter list of 32 houses

Barros,Burmester,Calem,Churchill,Cockburn,Dow,Ferreira,Fonseca,Gould Campbell,Graham,Kopke,Krohn,Martinez,Messias,Morgan,Niepoort,Offley,Pocas,Quarles Harris,Quinta do Crasto,Quinta do Infantado,Quinta do Noval,Quinta do Passadouro,Quinta de la Rosa,Quinta do Vesuvio,Ramos,Royal Oporto,Sandeman,Sandeman Vau,Smith Woodhouse,Taylor,Warre

Of this lot, I can so far find somewhere to get a hold of all bar Calem, Messias, Pocas, Q dl R, Royal Oporto and Sandeman

Homework:
- suggestions please for a venue that can cope with 30 glasses x 14 people. Has this ever been tried at TBH? What about RAF Club...I notice previous tastings there? Was it up to scratch?
- thoughts on ports to add to the above list, or others to take out for whatever reason
- reconfirm if you are interested, and if you are able contribute a bottle or bottles, which would they be
Last edited by flash_uk on 18:44 Sat 05 Apr 2014, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DRT
Fonseca 1966
Posts: 15594
Joined: 23:51 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Contact:

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by DRT » 22:58 Thu 03 Apr 2014

I am in.

If we go for the whole line-up we could perhaps go for a "walk-around" format. Imagine our usual room with no chairs and the table pushed up to the wall with 32 bottles on it and a bundle of glasses on another table at the end. Provided we could restrain ourselves to trade tasting sample sizes we could just work our way through the line-up over the course of the evening in the same way we do at events such as the BFT.

Eating can be done in the main restaurant, as has been done many times before.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 22175
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by jdaw1 » 23:19 Thu 03 Apr 2014

I am in, and have Sandeman Vau 1997 in double-magnum, which might lessen the volume deficit.

Walk-about format? Deeply untraditional. I much prefer having all my glasses in front of me, so that I have enough to smell, but can start with a small taste and later can revisit to drink.

User avatar
uncle tom
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3183
Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Near Saffron Walden, England

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by uncle tom » 05:38 Fri 04 Apr 2014

I certainly want to get a better take on this vintage, but I'm not sure about the walk-around idea..

The top sixteen brands and an ocean of glasses would be a better plan IMO
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill

TLW
Quinta do Noval LBV
Posts: 203
Joined: 07:51 Sat 01 Dec 2012

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by TLW » 07:50 Fri 04 Apr 2014

Looks like my trip to London will be a week later than preciously thought - going the wrong way round the world this time. I will probably arrive on the solstice, staying only for a couple of days.

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 22175
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by jdaw1 » 08:34 Fri 04 Apr 2014

flash_uk wrote:30 glasses x 14 people
If we have really have thirty-ish shippers, I would much rather it be split into two sessions, with a gap between. Lunch and dinner, ideally. More than fifteen to eighteen in one session I find overwhelming.

User avatar
flash_uk
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3361
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by flash_uk » 09:37 Fri 04 Apr 2014

jdaw1 wrote:
flash_uk wrote:30 glasses x 14 people
If we have really have thirty-ish shippers, I would much rather it be split into two sessions, with a gap between. Lunch and dinner, ideally. More than fifteen to eighteen in one session I find overwhelming.
Well that would also make the space logistics much more manageable - 15 glasses per sitting.

User avatar
jdaw1
Cockburn 1851
Posts: 22175
Joined: 15:03 Thu 21 Jun 2007
Location: London
Contact:

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by jdaw1 » 10:21 Fri 04 Apr 2014

For the Taylor vertical at the Bunghole on 22nd March 2013 twenty glasses per person were squeezed onto the table.

With fourteen people at the Bunghole, that is a sensible upper limit: ≤ 20 glasses per person. Though 18 would have been more convenient.

User avatar
djewesbury
Graham’s 1970
Posts: 8159
Joined: 20:01 Mon 31 Dec 2012
Location: Belfast
Contact:

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by djewesbury » 17:03 Fri 04 Apr 2014

I'm (still) in, but I do not favour a walk-around. I also want to have my glasses in front of me and to be able to take my time over them and compare.
I may have access to some slightly larger premises; they might be able to cater for us as well. Do you want me to enquire?
Daniel J.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...

CPR 1
Warre’s Otima 10 year old Tawny
Posts: 595
Joined: 16:18 Mon 22 Apr 2013

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by CPR 1 » 18:39 Fri 04 Apr 2014

Def still in, I too favour focusing on the likely top 14 - 16

idj123
Dow Quinta do Bomfim 1987
Posts: 900
Joined: 20:54 Tue 13 Nov 2012

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by idj123 » 19:41 Fri 04 Apr 2014

Please count me in if there's a space. Almost assuredly too young but in the interests of research.... Less in favour of a walk around approach and limiting to top 14-16 doesn't seem unreasonable.

User avatar
flash_uk
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3361
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by flash_uk » 14:23 Sat 05 Apr 2014

OK many thanks to everyone for ideas and thoughts. Top post updated for confirmations etc. Turning to the "how many" debate, I see really only 3 options:
1. 18 ports in one sitting. Suggested as: Cockburn, Dow, Ferreira, Fonseca, Gould Campbell, Graham, Martinez, Morgan, Niepoort, Offley, Quinta do Noval, Quinta do Vesuvio, Ramos, Sandeman, Sandeman Vau, Smith Woodhouse, Taylor, Warre. Start at 6, usual place.

2. 24 ports tackled as 12 then 12. Could start at say 4 or 5, hit 12, then dinner, then another 12.

3. 32 ports, tackled as 18 then 14. Start at say 1pm with lunch, then 18, then dinner, then 14.

Personally my view is that 1 is straightforward, 3 would mean picking a date where the following day I have no requirement to think/use brain, work, operate heavy equipment etc. Option 2 is clearly a bit of a halfway house. I suspect finding a date that accommodates an early afternoon start followed by a out-of-sight day will prove impossible for a roster of 14 people. Hence I conclude option 1 is the way forward. Depending on the learnings from this scientific endeavour, the option is available to lay on a subsequent event to tackle another 16 or so, to include those missed here plus any that turn out to be spoiled on the day.

Next homework:
- Please advise which bottles anyone would wish to contribute. It looks like I can find almost all the 18 listed here and allowing for shipping costs etc at roughly all in for £1100, being just shy of £80pp between 14. So if everyone would prefer to avoid the hassle of finding and drawing a single bottle from a case offsite somewhere, then we can agree to just source single bottles afresh and be done with it.
- The only ones I see an issue with are the Noval (expensive) and I can't find regular Sandeman. Did it exist given Vau was shipped? Julian has offered to provide Vau...if anyone has the Noval it might be helpful.
- To make up the 18 (helpfully being 3 A4 pages of 6 glasses, I picked Martinez, Morgan, Offley, Ramos beyond what seemed to be an obvious 14. If anyone would rather see something different than these 4, speak now...

Christopher
Quinta do Noval LBV
Posts: 228
Joined: 14:24 Thu 17 Jan 2008
Location: London

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by Christopher » 16:19 Sat 05 Apr 2014

Hi
Can you please put me down plus a guest, initials of guest to be confirmed.
I will bring the Noval, for the second bottle happy to adopt.
Thanks

User avatar
uncle tom
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3183
Joined: 23:43 Wed 20 Jun 2007
Location: Near Saffron Walden, England

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by uncle tom » 17:05 Sat 05 Apr 2014

Would suggest option (1), but dropping Ferreira, Morgan, S.Vau and Niepoort, and adding Croft and Noval Nacional.

Reasons:

- Ferreira is not currently a very serious player on the VP front; Morgan is no more, and this was their last vintage; Sandeman Vau was an experiment and, perhaps, maybe an unwise one; '97 is an embarassing vintage for Niepoort, that Dirk admits without caveat.

- Croft, although wholly Roeda (I understand) is a serious contender, Nacional's elevated status deserves the scrutiny of a serious horizontal.

I would prefer a blind presentation.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill

User avatar
flash_uk
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3361
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by flash_uk » 17:24 Sat 05 Apr 2014

Christopher wrote:Hi
Can you please put me down plus a guest, initials of guest to be confirmed.
I will bring the Noval, for the second bottle happy to adopt.
Thanks
Done.

User avatar
flash_uk
Quinta do Vesuvio 1994
Posts: 3361
Joined: 20:02 Thu 13 Feb 2014
Location: London

Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation

Post by flash_uk » 17:32 Sat 05 Apr 2014

uncle tom wrote:Would suggest option (1), but dropping Ferreira, Morgan, S.Vau and Niepoort, and adding Croft and Noval Nacional. Reasons:
- Ferreira is not currently a very serious player on the VP front; Morgan is no more, and this was their last vintage; Sandeman Vau was an experiment and, perhaps, maybe an unwise one; '97 is an embarassing vintage for Niepoort, that Dirk admits without caveat.
- Croft, although wholly Roeda (I understand) is a serious contender, Nacional's elevated status deserves the scrutiny of a serious horizontal.
So have dropped Ferreira and Niepoort and added Nacional and Croft Roeda. Leaving Morgan and Vau in for now as it keeps us at 18.

Edit: of course adding the Nacional puts about an extra £70pp onto the cost assuming purchased at retail!
Last edited by flash_uk on 19:07 Sat 05 Apr 2014, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply