Offer of Very Old Tawny Port in Bulk

[Will W.]

I present the following for the consideration of TFP members, hastening to add that I have no fiduciary interest in the matter which follows.

In a round-about way, I came into contact recently with a family of growers who are looking to offload up to 300 bottles of old tawny in bulk. Said family has six hectares under vine at a property situated just south of Sanradela at an altitude of 460m. The family is not and have never been port makers, save for production for personal consumption. Rather, it produces about 4,000 litres of juice each year, which is sold to Adega Cooperativa de Vila Real. I did not ask what the Adega does with it. The wine which the family is seeking to shift came from a single pipe, laid down they believe circa 1900-1910; the lot of it was bottled in 1993 as a defence against evaporation. Most of the 350 bottles remain in storage at the quinta (if I understood correctly).

Two weeks ago, Her Ladyship and I sampled the tawny from a bottle opened in my office.

In the glass, the port presented extremely well. It was dark amber in colour, opaque and featured loads of green on the rim. The considerable age of the wine was evidenced further by the impressive depth at the nose. Caramelised brown sugar dominated, complemented by notes of inter alia aged cherry, furniture polish, walnut and oak. At the mouth, the caramelised brown sugar dominated the fore-palate, giving way to cinnamon, lemon zest and green walnut. At the back and through the finish, the wine was pleasantly warming, although, taken together, the mouth and the final act were not nearly as multifaceted as had been the nose. Overall, this relatively sweet offering was balanced well against heaps of acidity – there being a touch of volatility in the latter, redolent of an older Niepoort colheita. There were no obvious signs that the wine had been refreshed prior to bottling with a markedly younger port, though more experienced palates than our own would be better placed to make a firmer assessment on this question. The family had the IVDP analyse the port in 2011 (additional to a Casa do Douro analysis undertaken in 1993); the resultant IVDP paperwork sets out the various technical characteristics, finding more generally that the wine was indeed a vinho do porto of between eighty and one-hundred years of age.

If there is theoretical interest in a bulk purchase by TFP members - my guess would be in the area of 200-300 units - I will ask the family to provide a bottle for tasting at the next TFP event. However, before initiating that discussion with the putative vendor, it might be useful to discuss offline the sort of money which the family has in mind as a per bottle tariff. The latter struck me as aspirational for a garrafeira particular sold individually, never mind in bulk.

[jdaw1]

I could be interested in a moderate number of dozens.

Obviously, the tawdry issue of €£$¥元₩₹₪¤ would be relevant, but perhaps should be discussed by email rather than here.

[nac]

Also interested. Again, a side discussion of fiduciary matters might be appropriate. Email or WhatsApp group?

[Will W.]

Also interested. Again, a side discussion of fiduciary matters might be appropriate. Email or WhatsApp group?

I concur: best to take the pricing issue offline. You guys have my email; initiate at your leisure. Or we can set up a conf call anytime. WhatsApp also fine, though we'd probably hash out a plan, if there's to be one, more effectively by email or voice.

[MigSU]

An interesting development.

[Glenn E.]

I'm very interested, and could probably put together a group order from the Seattle area. It would, of course, be wonderful if Seattle could also receive a single bottle for tasting, but I would also understand if this is not possible. I am comfortable enough with Alex's palate to be able to make a purchase based on his notes if necessary.

I don't believe that I have Will's email, but I'll PM mine to him so that we can discuss price directly.

[Will W.]

Glenn - I’ve sent you a text message with my email address.

[Port_funghifoodie]

I feel like Delboy when offered 50 gold chains. I’ll take two. Haha.

[CPR 1]

Definitely interested

[akzy]

Also interested!

[flash_uk]

Could be tempted...

[winesecretary]

Also interested

[JacobH]

Me too. Is there anyone who has experience of this sort of thing who might be willing to volunteer to coordinate on behalf of UK TPF members? I presume since Brexit there may be non-obvious shipping issues.

[Will W.]

Okay lads, here's my suggestion: I will join the online drinks tonight at +/- 2000 GMT; Mike has very kindly just sent me the link. I can there explain what price the family is mooting and why I assess it to be inconsistent with market conditions, and we can work out a more agreeable tentative plan which may appease seller and buyer(s) - everything being subject to those in the UK and US actually tasting the stuff.

[nac]

Okay lads, here's my suggestion: I will join the online drinks tonight at +/- 2000 GMT; Mike has very kindly just sent me the link. I can there explain what price the family is mooting and why I assess it to be inconsistent with market conditions, and we can work out a more agreeable tentative plan which may appease seller and buyer(s) - everything being subject to those in the UK and US actually tasting the stuff.

Sounds like a plan.

[hadge]

i'm also interested

[Mike J. W.]

I'd be interested in some bottles based on price of course. The other issue would be how to get them into the U.S.?

[DRT]

The wine which the family is seeking to shift came from a single pipe, laid down they believe circa 1900-1910; the lot of it was bottled in 1993 as a defence against evaporation. Most of the 350 bottles remain in storage at the quinta (if I understood correctly).

At the risk of sparking an old debate, I think it is worth noting that the "Angel's Share" (2%-5% per annum depending on storage and climatic conditions) of a Pipe of Port laid down in 1910 would result in the Pipe containing enough to fill at best 137 bottles and at worst 10 bottles in 1993.

Buyers beware.

[idj123]

Would be interested -price dependent of course

[Glenn E.]

the "Angel's Share" (2%-5% per annum depending on storage and climatic conditions)

This is the part that I'm coming to believe is not completely accurate. The Angel's Share may be 3% at the very beginning with a new barrel, but old well-seasoned barrels are much lower, and a barrel that has had the same Port in it for decades is lower still. I've heard several producers say that very old barrels with very old Port in them drop well below 1% per year... to even fractions of a percentage. The sugars (and other... particulates) in Port seal the inside of the barrel over time.

Consider this possibility:
3% per year for 10 years
2% per year for the next 10 years
1% per year for the next 10 years
0.5% per year for the next 50 years

That leaves you with ~42% of the original contents after 80 years, which if starting with a 550-liter barrel would leave you with roughly 308 x 750ml bottles.

So while "buyer beware" is always good advice with any kind of old bottle, Port or not, I don't see any red flags in this description because I think that our understanding of the Angel's Share is not as accurate as it should be for Port.

[DRT]

the "Angel's Share" (2%-5% per annum depending on storage and climatic conditions)

This is the part that I'm coming to believe is not completely accurate. The Angel's Share may be 3% at the very beginning with a new barrel, but old well-seasoned barrels are much lower, and a barrel that has had the same Port in it for decades is lower still. I've heard several producers say that very old barrels with very old Port in them drop well below 1% per year... to even fractions of a percentage. The sugars (and other... particulates) in Port seal the inside of the barrel over time.

Consider this possibility:
3% per year for 10 years
2% per year for the next 10 years
1% per year for the next 10 years
0.5% per year for the next 50 years

That leaves you with ~42% of the original contents after 80 years, which if starting with a 550-liter barrel would leave you with roughly 308 x 750ml bottles.

So while "buyer beware" is always good advice with any kind of old bottle, Port or not, I don't see any red flags in this description because I think that our understanding of the Angel's Share is not as accurate as it should be for Port.

So Port can sit in a barrel for 83 years, lose 58% of its volume through evaporation and not resemble treacle? Good to know

[JacobH]

the "Angel's Share" (2%-5% per annum depending on storage and climatic conditions)

This is the part that I'm coming to believe is not completely accurate. The Angel's Share may be 3% at the very beginning with a new barrel, but old well-seasoned barrels are much lower, and a barrel that has had the same Port in it for decades is lower still. I've heard several producers say that very old barrels with very old Port in them drop well below 1% per year... to even fractions of a percentage. The sugars (and other... particulates) in Port seal the inside of the barrel over time.

I suppose if evaporation levels fall to below 1% it might explain why there is no apparent topping up of very old barrels: by the time they get to being “very old” there isn’t a need. The question is really what happens before they get to being “very old”, though.

I’m still generally suspicious of old colheitas since the point raised by Derek is never really addressed by anyone who sells them! (And, I do ask the question: why did this family feel a need to bottle as protection against evaporation when other shippers do not seem to have this issue?).

[PhilW]

I do ask the question: why did this family feel a need to bottle as protection against evaporation when other shippers do not seem to have this issue?.

Whether relevant in this case I have no idea, but I suspect part of the answer in general might be that the larger shippers tend to have larger quantities, so it is easier for them to top up their N-1 barrels using the Nth barrel, so that N-1 evaporate at a slower rate; over time the contents of the Nth barrel might be moved to smaller barrel, or be used up, etc. Not an option for a family with a single barrel.

[pipos2000]

I'm also curious & interested depending on price.
Ship to Portugal or Germany/ Luxemburg.

Envoyé de mon VOG-L29 en utilisant Tapatalk

[drinker]

Sorry for the late reply I’ve been on holiday - I will certainly take as many as is available - I’m back soon but please pm me

Regards

[SCP]

I would be interested as well

[Andy Velebil]

I’d be interested. But here’s the thing. There is a lot of these family tawnys around the Douro. Most are pleasant but not great and not worth a ton of money. Tread carefully.

[Will W.]

I’d be interested. But here’s the thing. There is a lot of these family tawnys around the Douro. Most are pleasant but not great and not worth a ton of money. Tread carefully.

I could not agree more. Hence, the various discussions about the necessity of getting one bottle to London and another to Seattle for the various interested parties in and around those locations to try. And here, I would note that the family has agreed to cough up two bottles for such purpose. I have just emailed Glenn about how best to get one bottle to him; the London bottle I can hand carry later this month, assuming that the tasting scheduled for 20 January comes to pass. Otherwise, I can move the UK-bound bottle in due course.

[Glenn E.]

Andy, you're invited to the Seattle tasting if we can work out a mutually agreeable date.

[Andy Velebil]

Andy, you're invited to the Seattle tasting if we can work out a mutually agreeable date.

We have one. Just need the bottle to be there in time.

[Will W.]

The bottle for America is now on the way to Seattle from Porto. I will bring the other one to London on the 20th. The 1997 tasting is cancelled I see, though I shall get it to the fellows who are meeting nonetheless for supper.

[Glenn E.]

The bottle for America is now on the way to Seattle from Porto.

That should arrive in plenty of time, thanks Will!

[MigSU]

The bottle for America is now on the way to Seattle from Porto. I will bring the other one to London on the 20th. The 1997 tasting is cancelled I see, though I shall get it to the fellows who are meeting nonetheless for supper.

Bring back the last glass!

[drinker]

I'm still following this - waiting for feedback/prices/quantities.

Regards

[Glenn E.]

Seattle bottle has arrived!

[flash_uk]

Seattle bottle has arrived!

That was zippy!

[Glenn E.]

Seattle bottle has arrived!

That was zippy!

Nuno at Mail Boxes Etc. Boavista is awesome!

[MigSU]

Seattle bottle has arrived!

That was zippy!

Nuno at Mail Boxes Etc. Boavista is awesome!

Can confirm.

[/2alph]

Seattle bottle has arrived!

That was zippy!

Nuno at Mail Boxes Etc. Boavista is awesome!

How is the wine?

[Glenn E.]

I'm letting it settle down and will be tasting it with a group on Feb 4-5. I'll report back once I've recovered from that weekend!

[flash_uk]

Have we figured out when the London-based interested folks are going to open and taste this?

[nac]

Have we figured out when the London-based interested folks are going to open and taste this?

WillW bringing to dinner tomorrow. I'll have a think about how to get to those not attending. Have already arranged to send a sample to SCD, so could potentially do that.

[flash_uk]

Have we figured out when the London-based interested folks are going to open and taste this?

WillW bringing to dinner tomorrow. I'll have a think about how to get to those not attending. Have already arranged to send a sample to SCD, so could potentially do that.

Magic - thx!

[nac]

I have the remains of the bottle supplied by Will last night.
It will be portioned out into sample pouches over the weekend. UK P&P will be about £3.
SCD & Flash_UK have requested already. Any more? First come, first served.

[PhilW]

I have the remains of the bottle supplied by Will last night.
It will be portioned out into sample pouches over the weekend. UK P&P will be about £3.
SCD & Flash_UK have requested already. Any more? First come, first served.

Yes please, if you have sufficient.

[akzy]

Yes please Neil.

[CPR 1]

yes please

[winesecretary]

Yes please

[nac]

[table][/table]

Yes please

Managed to get four samples out of what was left.
Sorry George.

Have been argoned and will endeavour to get them in the post tomorrow.

[nac]

Samples have been posted. Should be delivered Monday. £3 each. No rush for payment.