Thoughts on LBVs

[uncle tom]

There are at present around 100 different LBVs on the market, no fewer than 74 of them stocked by messrs Portugal Vineyards.

Of those 74, only 19 have T stopper closures, suggesting most are age worthy wines, but few describe themselves as 'unfiltered'. The 19 however are almost all high volume brands.

Why? A year go Oscar Q. kindly forwarded me the IVDP's technical definition of unfiltered. It's a bit of a minefield, and it appears very possible for a wholly unfiltered and unfined wine to fail the IVDPs laboratory test.

So most producers don't sign up to putting 'unfiltered' on the label. This does not help the consumer make an informed choice.

Then there's the 'bottle matured' description which even fewer bother with. I notice Warre say 'bottle aged'

The packaging and presentation of LBVs is an upward story, no longer the cheap lightweight bottles with cheap labels that were used forty years ago. The small producers are mostly using VP standard bottles now (often weighing more than the average 1340g filled weight for VP) with quality labels, and more and more often packed in whisky tubes.

The producers seem to have left the IVDP behind with LBV. It's a profitable product as it hits the sweet spot of volume sales coupled to a good margin over production costs.

I personally think the whisky tube packaging is a great improvement in presentation. Although it adds cost, it must be less expensive than the individual wooden cases often used for SQVP, which I tend to think are a bit of a fail, not least because the bottles often rotate in transport, leaving the label facing the wrong way on store shelves.

Bottles can also be racked or binned whilst still in their tubes, keeping the labels fresh.

And I'm continuing to add LBV to my cellar, the best value port on the market today, IMO

[rich_n]

I absolutely agree with you that they're extremely good value, and that the lack of clarity on which are truly filtered vs capable of aging is very frustrating. I'm continuing to add particularly Quevedo LBVs as I know they are capable of aging, I enjoy them as wines and they're more easily available in the UK right now than a lot of the other brands that aren't the traditional UK shippers. Having said that I would love to hear what you're seeing as the relative unknowns (to the less informed UK consumer) that you think are unsung heroes of the LBV market.

[MigSU]

the best value port on the market today, IMO

Very very true. And that goes for both the filtered (delicious for drinking now) and the unfiltered (very fit for ageing) LBVs.

[uncle tom]

Having said that I would love to hear what you're seeing as the relative unknowns (to the less informed UK consumer) that you think are unsung heroes of the LBV market.

I'm thinking we should have a tasting event for aspiring LBV producers, from Barao de Vilar to Pacheca to Tecedeiras to Vista Alegre - maybe two dozen bottles, chosen for being less well known and shipped with driven corks.

[jdaw1]

I'm thinking we should have a tasting event for aspiring LBV producers, from Barao de Vilar to Pacheca to Tecedeiras to Vista Alegre - maybe two dozen bottles, chosen for being less well known and shipped with driven corks.

And for being available in the UK at a sensible price. I’m going to want bottles of my favourite few.

Yes please.

[jdaw1]

Excellent idea for a thread.

Over the season I had Rozès ʟʙᴠ 2009, 2011, and 2013, and this evening am having the 2014.

[rich_n]

Excellent idea for a thread.

Over the season I had Rozès ʟʙᴠ 2009, 2011, and 2013, and this evening am having the 2014.

I don't know them as a producer at all, how have you found them? I may have to open a Quevedo or Sandeman LBV this evening now we've started this discussion!

[jdaw1]

The Rozès 2013 ʟʙᴠ was slightly green; the Rz11ʟʙᴠ was soft in a way that was slightly flabby; the Rz09ʟʙᴠ was stunningly-good top-rank with slightly-Tayloresque presence and grit, and would have benefitted from more cellar time.

[Glenn E.]

the best value port on the market today, IMO

For ruby Port, sure, but not for all Port.

For me, it is very hard to beat the value of a 10 Year Old White Port. They usually cost no more (and often less) than an LBV and I, at least, typically prefer them head-to-head. Sometimes producers even make 10-15 year old White Colheitas in the same price range, and those are also fantastic values. (I'm thinking specifically of the 2008 and 2010 DR White Colheitas.)

But yes, LBVs are clearly the best bang-for-the-buck amongst ruby Ports. The 2011 Crasto is often confused with VPs. I suspect the same would be true for the 2015 Graham were it not so sweet (which I of course love).

[rich_n]

the best value port on the market today, IMO

For ruby Port, sure, but not for all Port.

For me, it is very hard to beat the value of a 10 Year Old White Port. They usually cost no more (and often less) than an LBV and I, at least, typically prefer them head-to-head. Sometimes producers even make 10-15 year old White Colheitas in the same price range, and those are also fantastic values. (I'm thinking specifically of the 2008 and 2010 DR White Colheitas.)

But yes, LBVs are clearly the best bang-for-the-buck amongst ruby Ports. The 2011 Crasto is often confused with VPs. I suspect the same would be true for the 2015 Graham were it not so sweet (which I of course love).

I think the prices are switched between your market and here in the UK - we can pick up LBVs for £10-20 and a 10 year old white tawny will be higher than the top end of that.

[mcoulson]

I agree with all this in general, I have a number of LBV’s but part of the problem is the moment you work out they are nice they tend to have disappeared Niepoort 2015 LBV is gorgeous but now made of un-obtainium (except I believe George is hording some of it) I managed to get 4 bottles of the stuff before it disappeared completely. Another one I like is the BB LBV which tends to be Quinta de la Rosa and has consistently been good for me. Both of these are driven corks.

Tom if you choose to organise an LBV night then I have LBV and would love to come along.

[jdaw1]

BB LBV

“BB” = Bb = Broadbent?

[mcoulson]

BB LBV

“BB” = Bb = Broadbent?

Berry Brothers ....

https://www.bbr.com/products-2018801713 ... de-la-rosa

[winesecretary]

I might have a fair bit of Niepoort LBV… I’d be up for some LBV action, maybe two tastings in early summer, one for ‘old LBV’ defined as pre 2010 vintage, and another for post 2009 vintage. They are very different drinks old and young. I think I still have a 1995 somewhere… I had a magnum of Taylor ?1982? ?1984? at one point but it leaked and so got drunk in a hurry…

[jdaw1]

For the old tasting I still have a Warre 1982 ʟʙᴠ; for the younger tasting I have some of the (very excellent) Crasto 2015 ʟʙᴠ.

Berry Brothers

= BBR.

[nac]

An aged LBVs tasting was planned in 2022 - viewtopic.php?t=14547 - but scuppered by the RMT. Should this be plan be resurrected?

[Mike J. W.]

I had a 2013 Quinta da Pacheca LBV last year and it was excellent!

When I first started collecting Port I sort of looked down at LBV's and treated them like the red-headed step child. But I had a few good ones, most notably Ramos Pinto and my opinion was changed. I now have a fair number of LBV's in my cellar. The '92 and '95 Andresen LBV's if you can find them are very, very good. The 2000 Broadbent is also a very nice LBV if you can find it. The 2000 Broadbent, if I recall correctly, is made by Crasto and not Neipoort; which is what I would have expected as I believe Niepoort was making their VP's for them around that time.

John M. and I are planning to have a pre-2000 LBV tasting within the next 2 months. It should be interesting

[Andy Velebil]

Unfiltered LBV’s can be very delicious and can generally age nicely for a couple decades. I do find they tend to start losing their luster after about 20-25 yrs. They’re still good but they tend not to have the complexity to carry them into very old age. Of course there are exceptions, I’m speaking about the majority. It becomes very apparent when you have one next to a corresponding VP from the same, or near, year after a couple decades or more of age.

But that is generally how they’re made…to drink sooner while your VP matures.

[uncle tom]

Unfiltered LBV’s can be very delicious and can generally age nicely for a couple decades. I do find they tend to start losing their luster after about 20-25 yrs. They’re still good but they tend not to have the complexity to carry them into very old age. Of course there are exceptions, I’m speaking about the majority. It becomes very apparent when you have one next to a corresponding VP from the same, or near, year after a couple decades or more of age.

But that is generally how they’re made…to drink sooner while your VP matures.

The great bulk of old LBVs that come to market are lone 'kitchen cupboard' bottles that have been stored more in error than by design, and in less than ideal conditions. And some have been stripped prior to bottling to make them more approachable when released for sale.

My experience of bottles that have been both well made and well kept suggests that they can can hold up almost as well as VP. My drinking schedule for this year includes both Warre 81 LBV and Dow 61 LBV, and I'm quietly confident that both will delight.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I’ve just opened a bottle of Sandeman 2007 LBV. While it’s nowhere near the age that Andy and Tom have been discussing, I can confirm that with 17 years of aging, this LBV is effing delicious!

[Doggett]

I’ve just opened a bottle of Sandeman 2007 LBV. While it’s nowhere near the age that Andy and Tom have been discussing, I can confirm that with 17 years of aging, this LBV is effing delicious!

Good to know. When I had a Sandeman 2011 LBV a few years ago in lock down, it seemed it may need 47 years of aging to get to prime and effing D! It is a wonderful port but a tannic monster.

[rich_n]

I’ve just opened a bottle of Sandeman 2007 LBV. While it’s nowhere near the age that Andy and Tom have been discussing, I can confirm that with 17 years of aging, this LBV is effing delicious!

Good to know. When I had a Sandeman 2011 LBV a few years ago in lock down, it seemed it may need 47 years of aging to get to prime and effing D! It is a wonderful port but a tannic monster.

I have a number of bottles of the 2015 and I remember that being quite the tannic beast when I tried it relatively soon after purchase. I put the rest aside to forget about for the time being!

[Andy Velebil]

I’ve just opened a bottle of Sandeman 2007 LBV. While it’s nowhere near the age that Andy and Tom have been discussing, I can confirm that with 17 years of aging, this LBV is effing delicious!

From around that time period Sandeman has made huge improvements of their Ruby Ports. Just delicious!

[Glenn E.]

The 2007 Sandeman VP is also pretty spectacular, though on release I could barely taste it because it was so tannic.

2003 Taylor - this is filtered, but aged extremely well
2011 Crasto
2012 Carvalhas
2015 Graham

All pretty spectacular LBVs for me, at least. I don't drink that much LBV (why bother when I have more VP than I can drink in my lifetime?) but those have been very notable for me.

I also have 2003 Noval and Quevedo. I purchased 6-packs of each on release to deliberately age. Opened one of each at 15 years old and they were still too young. I meant to open another one of each last year but never found the right occasion, so that's now on the slate for this year. After all, 21 years old is legal drinking age in the US.

[rich_n]

The 2007 Sandeman VP is also pretty spectacular, though on release I could barely taste it because it was so tannic.

I feel like this was the same with more recent Sandeman LBVs that I've tried - massive tannic beasts that really need time to age rather than being blended for drinking on release.