1985 Cálem - suspicious bottle

[Rummy]

Having tried the Cálem 1985 twice now, I'm positive that the bottles I own do not contain 40 year old vintage port.

The port does not have any deposit whatsoever and is way too structural and dark coloured.

I'll be in England (London, Stourbridge and Manchester) in March and can bring my 3rd and last bottle of this suspicious vintage for any renowned forum member to try at a later date.

Added some pictures, any thoughts on this bottle being a fake?

[Alex Bridgeman]

That looks genuine to me. How odd.

Have you asked the IVDP to confirm the sello was one given to Calem?

[mcoulson]

Is it me just being suspicious but 000120 as a serial ??

I've never seen one that's not an actual 6 digit number ...

If I were forging a label it would not start with 000

[Rummy]

That looks genuine to me. How odd.

Have you asked the IVDP to confirm the sello was one given to Calem?

Everything about the bottle seems correct. Even underneath the capsule and the cork looked correct as well.
I have no doubts that this is a legitimate bottle from Cálem, it's the contents I don't trust.

Have not contacted the IVDP yet, the bottle pictured has been consumer. I will upload another picture of my last bottle tomorrow.

[Rummy]

Is it me just being suspicious but 000120 as a serial ??

I've never seen one that's not an actual 6 digit number ...

If I were forging a label it would not start with 000

I believe I have a 000005 somewhere in my cellar

[winesecretary]

If it is genuine, it must be a late release with label selo and capsule applied at point of release.

If it is a late release from producer cold cellar stocks, disregard what follows.

Absent that - I have my doubts about the bottle - is that a 1987 (VP) bottle? I have more doubts about the label, but it could be right if it is straight out of an untouched case (albeit I would expect a lot less information on a back label in 1987). Like Martin I have definite suspicions about the selo. And if it is a 1987 release I am virtually certain the capsule is not right.

[mcoulson]

https://wineauctioneer.com/lot/5048671/ ... rt-10x75cl

No rear label ... Different selo ...

[winesecretary]

The bottles in the case in Martin’s pic doesn’t have the indents at the back (which indents were what gave me pause for thought on Rummy’s bottle). It’s not very likely there were multiple bottle types used to bottle one VP in the late 1980s.

I am now even more suspicious than I was.

[winesecretary]

I have been doing some more digging. There do indeed seem to be two bottle variants for this port, so I will become marginally less suspicious than I was.

[mcoulson]

I think those indent marks are so machinery can rotate and orientate the bottle when applying labels.

If that's the case then the owc set of bottles look to be older than the one at this post and that doesn't add up

I can't find any info about date of introduction of the indent.

But I can find other pictures of the port with the indent marks

[Andy Velebil]

They late released a bunch of this around 4-ish years ago or so. There was/is a bunch for sale at the Calem Lodge in Gaia. I bought a bunch a few years ago when it was much cheaper than now.

Your bottle looks real to me.

[mcoulson]

That makes a lot of sense ...

https://www.vintageport.info/vpid/vpid_ ... sort=brand

[hadge]

I think this bottle looks correct to me. So i have had a quick look in the cellar and found a few of these. I bought these from Vintage Port & Wine around 3 to 4 years ago. they had come direct from Calem.

[hadge]

i think that you can see a printed code on the side of the back picture on Rummy first picture, mine also have a code printed on the side of the cap.

therefore I believe that the bottle was a late release stock, like mine.

[MigSU]

Harry, you're drunk.

It's "Vintage Wine & Port".

[hadge]

Harry, you're drunk.

It's "Vintage Wine & Port".

[winesecretary]

Right - so it seems like it is in fact a late release from a cold producer cellar with capsule label and selo applied at point of release, but which was also bottled (re bottled ?) in different bottles from the original release. I’ve seen Taylor LBV of that era with those positioning indents, so I know they existed in the mid 1980s, but I can’t recall seeing a VP of that era bottled in them.

[mcoulson]

so now I have a look I happen to have half's of Calem 85

These also came from VWP at the same time as Harry ....

I also have an 1982 full bottle with no indent marks

Bottle.jpg (46.32 KiB) Viewed 27118 times

Cap.jpg (28.09 KiB) Viewed 27118 times

rear.jpg (56.04 KiB) Viewed 27118 times

[Rummy]

I think this bottle looks correct to me. So i have had a quick look in the cellar and found a few of these. I bought these from Vintage Port & Wine around 3 to 4 years ago. they had come direct from Calem.

Please let me know if you open one of these, if there's any deposit in the bottle and whether this port tasted like a 1985 or not. I've bought my bottles from Garrafeira Nacional in 2021.

[mcoulson]

Well my 82 that I found was leaking a bit so I've just opened that and it's rather nice ... Fair amount of deposit in the bottom ... I appreciate it's not the 85 but at least this thread has tricked me into open a bottle of port

[winesecretary]

Rummy - if you bought from GN they are pretty reliable in my experience.

[M.Charlton]

Both Rummy’s and Harry’s bottles specify “Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by Sogevinus Fine Wines, S.A”, whereas the pictures of the other bottles specify “Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by A. A. Cálem & Filho, Lda.” or “Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by A. A. Cálem & Filho, S.A.”.

I thought Sogevinus was formed in the 1990s - if so, how could they have bottled the 1985?

[Glenn E.]

I thought Sogevinus was formed in the 1990s - if so, how could they have bottled the 1985?

1998, according to their LinkedIn profile.

If the bottle was a late release (aka a "shiner"), it might have been bottled in 1985 by A. A. Cálem & Filho, S.A. but had a more modern label applied when it was sold.

[Andy Velebil]

Both Rummy’s and Harry’s bottles specify “Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by Sogevinus Fine Wines, S.A”, whereas the pictures of the other bottles specify “Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by A. A. Cálem & Filho, Lda.” or “Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by A. A. Cálem & Filho, S.A.”.

I thought Sogevinus was formed in the 1990s - if so, how could they have bottled the 1985?

Whoever owned it at time of labeling would have their name on it. Not the original company decades earlier.

[flash_uk]

Both Rummy’s and Harry’s bottles specify “Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by Sogevinus Fine Wines, S.A”, whereas the pictures of the other bottles specify “Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by A. A. Cálem & Filho, Lda.” or “Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by A. A. Cálem & Filho, S.A.”.

I thought Sogevinus was formed in the 1990s - if so, how could they have bottled the 1985?

Whoever owned it at time of labeling would have their name on it. Not the original company decades earlier.

Which lends weight to a delayed release.

[PhilW]

I hadn't seen this more recent release; I had quite a lot of Ca85, but all were the older style labels/capsules (“Bottled in Oporto in 1987 by A. A. Cálem & Filho, S.A.” and "Imported for Grierson Blumenthal Ltd. - London"; capsule with "Porto Calem est 1859" and Rabello image; "AC" coding on selos for all images I have). Agree that this looks like a later release with new labels and capsules (therefore potentially recorked?); I've not noticed a lack of sediment with previous bottles of this port, so that is the surprising part, though otherwise in agreement with others that this is likely genuine, later release.

[nac]

Would anyone be bothered to fake Calem 85?

[mcoulson]

Would anyone be bothered to fake Calem 85?

That's a very good point ... My bottle of 82 that I opened yesterday is rather nice tho ...

[winesecretary]

Given the multiple data points it is most likely that this falls into the first two paragraphs of my 2216 of Wednesday.

[Rummy]

Any chance it could be an oversight by Calem? I.e. the contents do not match the label?

[PhilW]

Any chance it could be an oversight by Calem? I.e. the contents do not match the label?

If it had been the original label plus different cap, then yes (or forgery), but with new label and cap, with obvious potential reason for label change, it seems to make sense - and assuming a driven cork, branded, little reason to be suspicious.

[uncle tom]

I've got about a dozen notes on this wine, and all but one had VA

If the wine is good and drinkable, it might not be genuine!