possible fakes?

[Glenn E.]

I just received two bottles of 1970 Fonseca VP that I purchased from a normally reputable dealer, but they concern me for several reasons.

• * neither bottle has a Selo de Guarantia
  * the bottles are not a shape that I've ever seen used for Fonseca VP - they're somewhat rounded top and bottom instead of being nearly verticle
  * the bottles are a medium opacity green, which isn't normal (in my experience) for Fonseca VP
  * the capsules look fairly new and aren't a material I'm familiar with, though they are stamped with a Fonseca logo
  * the labels are fairly generic black paper, and while they do look somewhat familiar they simply lack details compared to my other Fonseca bottles
  * the lables do not indicate the bottler or the bottling date
  * there is no back label other than the small importer's label which is required by US law

I plan to take some pictures and link them here, but thought I'd go ahead and post while I'm working on it. I'm also going to contact the dealer and see if they have any knowledge of the bottles' histories. The two bottles are basically identical (including fill level, which is within an inch of the cork in one and 3/4 of an inch in the other) so they at least match, but they make me nervous.

Any preliminary comments based on this information? Anything else in particular I should look for? The corks are partially readable through the glass using a strong flashlight, and I can clearly read "FON" on one of them.

Edit: my wife correctly points out that I HAVE seen this bottle shape and color before - I have a 1963 Fonseca bottle on my trophy shelf that is nearly identical to these in every way except the curvature of the bottom of the bottle. Including the nearly featureless black label, though the 1963 version does indicate a UK bottler. Still... the lack of a Selo makes me nervous. Should I be?

[g-man]

I just received two bottles of 1970 Fonseca VP that I purchased from a normally reputable dealer, but they concern me for several reasons.

• * neither bottle has a Selo de Guarantia
  * the bottles are not a shape that I've ever seen used for Fonseca VP - they're somewhat rounded top and bottom instead of being nearly verticle
  * the bottles are a medium opacity green, which isn't normal (in my experience) for Fonseca VP
  * the capsules look fairly new and aren't a material I'm familiar with, though they are stamped with a Fonseca logo
  * the labels are fairly generic black paper, and while they do look somewhat familiar they simply lack details compared to my other Fonseca bottles
  * the lables do not indicate the bottler or the bottling date
  * there is no back label other than the small importer's label which is required by US law

I plan to take some pictures and link them here, but thought I'd go ahead and post while I'm working on it. I'm also going to contact the dealer and see if they have any knowledge of the bottles' histories. The two bottles are basically identical (including fill level, which is within half an inch of the cork) so they at least match, but they make me nervous.

Any preliminary comments based on this information? Anything else in particular I should look for? (The corks would be readable through the glass were they not covered by the capsules.)

can you also post on the stencil of the fonseca type? the 70 should have "Fonseca Finest 1970 Vintage Port"

i dont believe it has bottle date on it either

oh and yes the 70s were green bottles too .

[Glenn E.]

I'm preparing to upload several pictures now... but yes, the label does read "Fonseca's Finest 1970 Vintage Port."

[g-man]

http://www.antique-wines.net/portugal/fonseca63.jpg

here's a good one of the 63...

the 70s shoudl be very similar

viewtopic.php?p=3441#p3441

this was DRT's bottle and you can see it's green also

[Glenn E.]

bottle label
top of capsule
full bottle
bottle neck and capsule

The lighting isn't the greatest, and I had to lay the bottle down to take the pictures, but I think these will help.

[Glenn E.]

Oops, those are rather large. Hrm. I'll go back and make them links instead of embedded images.

At any rate, I guess the bottles are fine since they do look like the ones you linked. What a weirdly bland label and oddly light colored bottle to be using for VP!

[g-man]

that top is very quite queer,

I dont think I've ever seen a fonseca from 60 onwards with that top.

is that a double cap witha wax seal on top?

[g-man]

the label looks fine tho btw.

[Glenn E.]

It almost feels like rubber to me, though I suppose it could be some sort of hard (but not brittle-hard) wax. It doesn't mark easily with a fingernail, but I do get the impression that if I really tried I could scratch it.

If I look closely at the capsule, it does almost look like a rubber stopper of some sort that fits very tightly over the top of the bottle. I suppose it's possible that the capsules on these bottles were repaired/replaced.

[g-man]

well it's one of the cleanest 1970 bottles i've ever seen =)
esp with the top soo clearly visible.

but label and bottle do match for a F 70..

[Glenn E.]

That's good to hear (and see). Makes me feel better. Either that or the Kopke 40-yr old I just poured myself makes me feel better.

Or both.

[g-man]

That's good to hear (and see). Makes me feel better. Either that or the Kopke 40-yr old I just poured myself makes me feel better.

Or both.

heh post a note whne you pop one.

[Andy Velebil]

Those look like normal 1970's Fonseca's to me. That was the last year I've seen the hard plastic caps used...they had a short life span from about 1967 to 1970 thank goodness. Can't tell you how many times I've almost cut myself trying to get them off.

The rest look like normal bottles I've seen, opened, or own...so I wouldn't worry. Remember the Selo is ONLY applied if it was bottled the lodges back then. Negotiants didn't use them.

[uncle tom]

Can't tell you how many times I've almost cut myself trying to get them off.

Agreed - horrid things, and you must get them off before standing the bottle up, as it's almost impossible to remove them without disturbing the sediment.

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

Can't tell you how many times I've almost cut myself trying to get them off.

Agreed - horrid things, and you must get them off before standing the bottle up, as it's almost impossible to remove them without disturbing the sediment.

Tom

I finally figured out the perfect way to get them off without the loss of fingers, but it has to be at least partially done before standing it up.

- Lay the bottle on its side.
- Use a box cutter (Strong razor blade) and starting from the bottom edge of the plastic capsule, cut vertically to the top. Make sure to cut all the way through the plastic...why you need a strong and sharp razor/box cutter.
- make a parallel cut about 3/4" to either side of the first cut.
- When you peel up that small 3/4" section the rest of the capsule comes right off. That can be done without bothering the sediment.

Just remember to hold the bottle from the bottom and cut the capsule from the bottom to the top. That way your fingers/hand is no where near the razor when cutting.

[Glenn E.]

Can't tell you how many times I've almost cut myself trying to get them off.

Agreed - horrid things, and you must get them off before standing the bottle up, as it's almost impossible to remove them without disturbing the sediment.

Tom

I finally figured out the perfect way to get them off without the loss of fingers, but it has to be at least partially done before standing it up.

- Lay the bottle on its side.
- Use a box cutter (Strong razor blade) and starting from the bottom edge of the plastic capsule, cut vertically to the top. Make sure to cut all the way through the plastic...why you need a strong and sharp razor/box cutter.
- make a parallel cut about 3/4" to either side of the first cut.
- When you peel up that small 3/4" section the rest of the capsule comes right off. That can be done without bothering the sediment.

Just remember to hold the bottle from the bottom and cut the capsule from the bottom to the top. That way your fingers/hand is no where near the razor when cutting.

I'll have to remember this advise. Though as thick as those things appear to be, I suspect it's going to be very difficult to cut them even with a box cutter. I may have to look into some Port tongs to open these.

[Andy Velebil]

With a sharp box cutter I've made perfectly straight cuts without any problems. So you should have no problems.

[Glenn E.]

With a sharp box cutter I've made perfectly straight cuts without any problems. So you should have no problems.

Shush, you! You're ruining my excuse to buy Port tongs!

[Andy Velebil]

Oh I should add..using sharp razors and box cutters are VERY dangerous. Port tongs would be a much safer alternative.


Did that help Glenn?

[uncle tom]

The last time I took one of these off, I struggled to cut an incomplete vertical slit into one side with a blunt Stanley knife (care IS required!) and then heated the plastic with the steam from a kettle - I was then able to pull the capsule off with surprising ease.

Next time I shall try dispensing with the knife, and see if steam softening alone is sufficient.

Tom

[Glenn E.]

Oh I should add..using sharp razors and box cutters are VERY dangerous. Port tongs would be a much safer alternative.

Did that help Glenn?

Much better.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I agree with the advice you've been given so far - these appear to be real bottles, legit labels and seals.

And to get those seals off is easy - they pop off (and back on again, if required). You can do as Tom suggests and soften them with steam, but I just slip a flat-blade screwdriver under the rim and pop it off. Best if you do remove them before standing the bottle up, though.

Alex

[SushiNorth]

that top is very quite queer,
I dont think I've ever seen a fonseca from 60 onwards with that top.
is that a double cap with a wax seal on top?

I've seen that top before! It was the same as on the WineCommune Warre 63's that we were dubious about.

Anyone know anything more about it? While it could be a bizarre forgery outfit, i'd bet it's a standard replacement capsule.

[Andy Velebil]

From what I know and have seen these plastic capsules seemed to be most popular in the 1966/67 vintages. But I've seen them on a few 1963's and 1970's as well. They are original capsules and I can only guess it was some new "hot thing" back then which proved to be not so hot after all.

[Glenn E.]

Thanks for all the information... I've been browsing around and have now see many examples using that bland label on that translucent green bottle, so I think these are probably fine bottles. They sure looked weird when I opened the box, though!

[Portman]

I'm also glad to know this. If I had opened a box and seen one of these tops, I would have thought for sure it was counterfeit.