Finding a new favourite vintage port

[PhilW]

Hi,

My first 'real' post - be gentle with me

I have a current port goal which is to find a replacement for my beloved Warre77, so I thought I'd post about my plans and experience so far in case it's of interest and for any suggestions/comments/advice which would be welcome.

Warre77 has been my staple (affordable) favourite for the last decade; It's now starting to be in short supply, so it seems like a good time to try and find what else might be able to take it's place. Of course, I like trying many different ports, and would go for many older ones if budgets allow,but financial pragmatism also has to play its part. So previously, while say Fonseca 70 would have been my likely ideal choice, Warre 77 become my firm favourite since while very different I found I like it almost as much as the F70 and was much better value.

So how to find a new favourite? well, try more port ofc - such a drag My thoughts were along the following lines:
1. I'm looking for vintage, not ruby/crusted etc, as my experiments with the latter were not positive
2. On price grounds (as well as availability), it would have to be newer than 77
3. To be good enough, I'm expecting to look at least 15yr old, probably 20yr old+

Having looked at the options, years, vintages etc, along with what I have/haven't tried previously, a couple of things stood out:
- There were a few I'd already had, including various 83 (incl Warres, Fonseca, Grahams?), Fonseca 85, Fonseca 94; all were good, but none stood out as 'the one'
- I've enjoyed Grahams 77, 83, and not tried any newer
- I hadn't tried *any* Nierpoort
- The 94's are really only just really entering the criteria age-wise, are supposed to be a very good year and I'd only tried one

I decided therefore to try and fill the gaps, with a bias towards 94 on the grounds that this is supposed to be a superlative year, and am therefore planning over time to try at least Nierpoort 94, Grahams 94, Warre 94 and Warre 91. This gives me a chance to find out what I think of 94 generally, try a Niepoort, and a double-shot for Warres since I've enjoyed it for so long plus the W91 was supposed to be good.

So far, I've had two of them, with the following results (very brief taste notes - I don't flatter myself of the capability of description of some):

1. Nierpoort 94
I was pleasantly impressed with this; Seems lighter in initial intensity than I'm used to, but has a lovely smooth complex flavour with a long aftertaste. Has definitely made me want to try more Nierpoort. This would be a definite candidate, only negative for me being the initial lightness.

2. Warre 94
Very intense flavour, both initial and aftertaste; Very strong flavours of Vanilla and blackcurrent/berry; Not as 'earthy' as the 77. I still enjoyed drinking the bottle, but found the vanilla too overpowering; not a candidate.

3. Grahams 83
Unfortunately partly corked, so difficult to make any real valid judgement. Compared to the 77 Grahams tried previously extremely favourably, this was surprising dry (not the sweet stickier taste I expected) with a very closed intense dark flavour; however since partly corked, no idea if this is typical. Ideally would like to retry.

---
Further tastings at offlines now only added in usual places. To summarise, to date two suitable replacements have been identified, an a runner-up:

1= Calem 85
2= Morgan 91
3 [runner up] Warre 91

However, since both top choices are essentially unavailable for purchase, the "runner up" of Warre91 is currently top candidate, although it is only really just ready for drinking now, but will likely become a future staple. A case of Warre77 is planned in the interim while stocks last

Phil.

[JacobH]

Hi Phil, welcome to .

There seems to me to be a big jump in maturity between 1977 and 1994. Even in 10 years' time, I would have thought they will still be darker and younger than the 1977s are today. For similar drinking, I wonder whether you should look at the 1980 vintages, particularly the 1985s which I think is the best vintage of the 1980s. I quite like the Warre 1985 which is one of my favourite wines from this shipper but most of the main shippers put out something decent that year.

If you are going for the 1990s, it might be worth exploring the minor years, since they can provide some great drinking for much less money than the major vintages. 1996 is probably the best of them. I'd also add Quinta do Vesuvio to your list of potential candidates: the 1994 and 1996 are both excellent, classic Ports.

[RonnieRoots]

Hi Phil, and welcome!

You set yourself a difficult, but fun, task! My guess is that you will receive a wide range of suggestions here, because personal preferences differ quite a lot. Unlike Jacob, I am not a fan of the 1985 vintage at all, and consider the Warre 1985 unusually weak for the house. I like most 1987 ports far better than the 1985's, and they are also good value for money. Some 87's that are worth seeking out: Taylor's Vargellas, Fonseca Guimaraens, Niepoort, Graham's Malvedos.

Other ports you may want to try: Graham's 1980 / 1991 / 1994, Warre 1991, Vesuvio 1991 / 1992 / 1994, Fonseca Guimaraens 1988 / 1991 / 1995, Taylor (Vargellas) 1991, 1992 (although probably not within budget) / 1995, Gould Campbell 1977, Smith Woodhouse 1977.

That should keep you busy for a while.

[JacobH]

Unlike Jacob, I am not a fan of the 1985 vintage at all, and consider the Warre 1985 unusually weak for the house.

Hmm...I must try to acquire another bottle to revisit it; in my mind, it is one of the ‟classic” Warre’s that I have tried, up with the 1970 and 1963...

Some 87's that are worth seeking out: Taylor's Vargellas, Fonseca Guimaraens, Niepoort, Graham's Malvedos.

I agree, though the problem with 1987 is that you simply can’t get hold of them as easily as some of the surrounding years. I imagine that most were drunk to oblivion in the 1990s having been sold as early maturing SQVPs.

Out of interest, Ronnie, if you prefer 1987 to 1985, how would you rank the declarations in the 1980s?

[RonnieRoots]

Unlike Jacob, I am not a fan of the 1985 vintage at all, and consider the Warre 1985 unusually weak for the house.

Hmm...I must try to acquire another bottle to revisit it; in my mind, it is one of the ‟classic” Warre’s that I have tried, up with the 1970 and 1963...

The bottles I tried ranged from horribly spoiled by VA to weird and weak, and maybe only once just average. I guess I've never been lucky to stumble across that great bottle. But that's also one of my main concerns with 1985. Although there are great bottles to be found, there's just too much variation. There are problems with VA with certain producers, and other ports have never been really good (eg Taylor, Dow) or just aged really fast (eg Noval). Fonseca is the one notable exception (maybe Noval Nacional as well, but I never tasted that so wouldn't know).

Some 87's that are worth seeking out: Taylor's Vargellas, Fonseca Guimaraens, Niepoort, Graham's Malvedos.

I agree, though the problem with 1987 is that you simply can’t get hold of them as easily as some of the surrounding years. I imagine that most were drunk to oblivion in the 1990s having been sold as early maturing SQVPs.

That's interesting. I don't know what the situation is now, but until recently they were quite easy to get hold of in the Netherlands. In recent years I bought cases of Taylor Vargellas and Niepoort for good prices. Just last week I bought a bottle of Fonseca Guimaraens 1987 in Portugal, at Quinta do Panascal. It was just over 36 euro, which I consider to be a very good price (it's about the same as what I paid for the Vargellas).

Out of interest, Ronnie, if you prefer 1987 to 1985, how would you rank the declarations in the 1980s?

Interesting question. My list:
1. 1987, clearly a mistake not to declare. Some wines mature now, others will go for a long time still
2. 1983, not massive wines but drinking very nicely now
3. 1988, some very fine ports, that are still remarkably young. The wines are not so complex, but great to drink.
4. 1985, dissapointing as a whole, but Fonseca is spectacular and some others like Kopke and Graham are very nice.
5. 1980, I haven't had that many, but most I've tasted were quite weak. Dow is the exception: great port.
6. 1982, Only had a few, of which a Taylor Terra Feita that was quite enjoyable, but not special. The consensus seems to be that these ports are drying out. The couple I tried did indeed show that.
7, 1984 / 1986, very similar in profile. Some nice wines that are pretty to drink, but hardly any complexity and fully mature now.
8. 1989, quite weak overall, apart of course from the Cruz

A fun excercise. What does your list look like?

[JacobH]

A fun excercise. What does your list look like?

Hmm...It’s very hard to characterise each year from the 1980s because quite a few have odd, excellent Ports... I’ve also only tasted a handful of wines from some of these years, so I am sure that has skewed my thoughts, but here goes:

1: 1985; A lighter, more floral, vintage than many major declarations, but with a lot of fine, elegant Ports.
2: 1980; In some ways, I think this is the opposite of 1985 (with the exception of Graham’s): many dark wines produced which emphasis structure over fruit. With some more time, they might come round to being excellent.
3: 1987; A mistake not to declare. Very fine, dark, complex wines.
4: 1983; Nothing wrong with these wines, but perhaps not as interesting as those above.
5: 1982; A mixed bag: some nice wines produced (e.g. Croft, Delaforce, Graham’s Malvedos and Churchill), amongst very weak ones.
6: 1988; There seems to be some good SQVPs for a minor year but then I’ve only had a couple.
7: 1984; Very light and quick maturing.
8: 1989; Similar to 1984 but perhaps not quite as elegant.

Not really sure what I think of 1986: I’ve only tried the Fonseca Guimeraens, which was quite mature and attractive but one-dimensional, and the Graham’s Malvedos which was very young and dark and similar to the 1987. I wonder what other ers think! At least we agree on 1989 and 1984...

[PhilW]

Hi Jacob, Ronnie, thanks for the replies, some interesting suggestions.

I agree about the age, that 94 is still a little new; I've been drinking the 77 happily for ~10 year, so really my target would be <90, on the basis that the 77 was superb 10 years ago when the equivalent age was <80, assuming I could find an equivalent. 83/85 would be natural candidates given that criteria - however I've had quite a few 83 and while some are very nice (the Grahams stood out for me), they didn't quite reach the "eureka" equivalent of the Warre77, hence my decision to search further.

One of your suggestions I think I will *definitely* follow up on is to try some of the 87 (assuming I can source some) - I'd somehow completely missed this year as a possibility, and it could well have the right age/quality/value balance. Also given my impression of the Nierpoort94, if the 87 Nierpoort is a good one... well, we'll have to see

Thanks again for the thoughts,

Phil.

[mosesbotbol]

There's plenty of great vintages from the 80's at all price points. I don't think there is a clear single best vintage out of the decade.

[jdaw1]

I think we have a theme for an informal London tasting. Bring a Blind Candidate House VP for PhilW.

[DRT]

I think we have a theme for an informal London tasting. Bring a Blind Candidate House VP for PhilW.

Brilliant!

[PhilW]

I think we have a theme for an informal London tasting. Bring a Blind Candidate House VP for PhilW.

hehe, would be a nice plan but a little too self-centred for me I think! Of course it could be done as a "best of the 80's VP" instead, even if my personal goal would still be the same; since for my (personal) search at the moment I'm looking at something like 77>year<94, then an informal 80s would likely cover it aside from the newer very early 90s option...

Phil.

[jdaw1]

would be a nice plan but a little too self-centred for me I think!

For very big structured tastings we have two well-established themes: the vertical, and the horizontal. For small get-togethers we like to have new amusing themes: the real purpose is to be sociable with interesting port. It won’t be ‟self-centred”, it will be us-centred.

[Zelandakh]

"Random blind vintage" - opening up the field can give you a surprise that can lead to a lifelong friendship.

[PhilW]

would be a nice plan but a little too self-centred for me I think!

For very big structured tastings we have two well-established themes: the vertical, and the horizontal. For small get-togethers we like to have new amusing themes: the real purpose is to be sociable with interesting port. It won’t be ‟self-centred”, it will be us-centred.

Ah that's ok then, am always happy to be the cause of amusement or an excuse to drink port, eat good food and be sociable

[uncle tom]

Greetings Phil,

The feeblest excuses to eat and drink well are always welcome here, so I'm sure you'll fit in just fine..!

As we have people posting on this site from most corners of the globe, it is quite useful to know where people are based, when planning events; so could you fill out your profile a little, so we have some idea of whereabouts you are?

Cheers,

Tom

[Alex Bridgeman]

I think we have a theme for an informal London tasting. Bring a Blind Candidate House VP for PhilW.

hehe, would be a nice plan but a little too self-centred for me I think! Of course it could be done as a "best of the 80's VP" instead, even if my personal goal would still be the same; since for my (personal) search at the moment I'm looking at something like 77>year<94, then an informal 80s would likely cover it aside from the newer very early 90s option...

Phil.

This sounds like an excellent idea.

Don't overlook some of the more serious traditional LBV ports that are easy to get hold of - Noval is normally priced at around £15-16 in Tesco but can be bought opportunistically (excuse the pun) when Tesco run their "buy 6 bottles and get 25% off" sales. Tesco 1994 own label port is also worth a try.

Within the '80s decade I would suggest that 1980 is too difficult to get hold of to make it worth appointing as a "house port". 1982 is more easily available, but in my opinion is generally lighter weight than the Warre 1977. Dow 1983 is a serious heavyweight, Warre 1983 is what I would automatically have thought to suggest, Offley '83 is a good wine that is usually sold at a good price. I would avoid 1984. 1985 should be a serious contender although you have to choose carefully. Fonseca is my wine of the vintage and will not be as mature as the Warre 1977 for another 20-30 years. Also liked by me are the Symington wines, Delaforce, Martinez, Offley, Taylor. Personally, I would avoid Croft as I have had too many bottles riddled with VA.

I like 1986, but these are difficult to find - but very tasty! Fonseca Guimaraens is my favourite. 1987 saw some great wines being made. My favourite varies between the Crasto and Vargellas. 1988 is tougher and would not immediately spring to mind as a candidate to replace Warre 1977, but if you want to try something from 1988, see if you can find the Fonseca Guimaraens (which crops up in supermarkets occasionally) or the Madalena. Both are young and delicious. 1989 is a curious vintage that you will have to try for yourself and make up your own mind - I suggest trying the Cavadinha or the Skeffington, if you can find them. The Vesuvio is atypical of the wines from this quinta as it was stored in the Douro and so acquired some baked characteristics that are not in the 1991 or later wines.

But you might also like to consider planning ahead for the longer term. While the 1992 ports from Taylor Fladgate are pricey, there are some relative bargains to be found in the 1991 wines. These wines are starting to drink really well and earlier in the year when a few of them cropped up in our "bring a bottle wrapped in foil to share with fellow port lovers" sessions I was very surprised at how well they were drinking. 1994 is a vintage with lots of hype and is expensive, but easily found and the 1994 Vesuvio is a monumental wine. 1995 is an overlooked and very impressive vintage - perhaps one to stock up for the future. 1997 is a headline vintage, generally making wines with lots of tannic backbone and which will take many years to soften to the the level of the Warre 1977...but these are wines which are currently closed down, out of balance and just plain awkward to drink. This means that there are some bargains to be found as supply is slightly in excess of demand. If you wanted to be drinking 1997 ports in 20 years time then now might be a good time to be buiying them.

But the best idea I have heard yet is for us to organise an evening of fine port and good company and give you the chance to try a few bottles all in one night.

[jdaw1]

PhilW: there seems to be some enthusiasm for the try-and-see idea. Please start a thread in Organising Tastings and Get-togethers, suggesting which dates can work for you. Please give a useful title to the thread, perhaps ‟PhilW’s New House Port”. Others will say which of those dates they can make, one will be chosen, and things can move forward from there.

[JacobH]

1987 saw some great wines being made. My favourite varies between the Crasto and Vargellas.

A Crasto 1987 is not something I’ve heard of before; I didn’t realise they made Vintage Port before the 1990s. Was it generally released in the usual way?

[PhilW]

PhilW: there seems to be some enthusiasm for the try-and-see idea. Please start a thread in Organising Tastings and Get-togethers, suggesting which dates can work for you. Please give a useful title to the thread, perhaps ‟PhilW’s New House Port”. Others will say which of those dates they can make, one will be chosen, and things can move forward from there.

Sure, will do. As I haven't yet had chance to meet up for an event (formal or informal), I'm not sure what usual practise/organisation is, so will likely need some advice; Am thinking of things like venue (any particular booking requirements to get right room, glasses, whether people bring pre-decanted or other arrangements, or whether all that side is only done for formal tastings, that kind of thing). Will start off posting as requested with a place, date and theme and check response.

Phil.

[JacobH]

Sure, will do. As I haven't yet had chance to meet up for an event (formal or informal), I'm not sure what usual practise/organisation is, so will likely need some advice; Am thinking of things like venue (any particular booking requirements to get right room, glasses, whether people bring pre-decanted or other arrangements, or whether all that side is only done for formal tastings, that kind of thing). Will start off posting as requested with a place, date and theme and check response.

Phil, assuming that you can get to London, the usual venue for informal tastings is The Crusting Pipe in the basement of Covent Garden. If there are ≤ 6 people we usually ask them to book the Board Room for us, otherwise the Tunnel. If we ask them at the time of booking they will provide glasses (we usually need x², x being the number of people at the tasting). However, if you know of any other venues where we can get a large number of glasses, some acceptable food, and not have to pay excessive corkage, then please do suggest them; we are always looking out for new places.

Usually people bring their Ports pre-decanted and wrapped in tin-foil though it’s not the end of the world if we have to do it there. For these things we usually double-decant by decanting the Port into a decanter, washing out the bottle, and then decanting it back into the bottle. There’s some more information in the Organising Tastings FAQ thread.

Unless, however, you would like to do something else, we are usually very informal about these things; they are usually a good chance to try out some new Ports, see how good you are at guessing what Ports are when served blind and so on!

[PhilW]

Jacob, thanks for the info.

From reading through old threads I'd assumed TCP as from recent tastings, plus I checked their menu and the steak looked enticing, assuming we also eat?! Good to know about the double pre-decant (makes sense) and that they supply glasses for us for informal. Have posted for an informal get together and will see what response it like.

Phil.

[jdaw1]

Link to organisation thread for this tasting.

[Alex Bridgeman]

1987 saw some great wines being made. My favourite varies between the Crasto and Vargellas.

A Crasto 1987 is not something I’ve heard of before; I didn’t realise they made Vintage Port before the 1990s. Was it generally released in the usual way?

I've only ever seen the Crasto '87 in Portugal - but it's worth keeping an eye out for it as it is a very good port.

[PhilW]

As part of my search, I tried some Grahams 83 at the weekend; I had high hopes for this as viable candidate port, since while I prefer the Warre 77 to Graham 77, the G77 is also extremely good imo, with a much sweeter sticky style and lovely flavour. Sadly, the bottle of Graham 83 I opened was partly corked, so any judgement on its' taste is likely flawed

Overall it did seem to improve a little 24 hours later; still seemed to have a very closed, intense dark flavour; If this is typical of the G83, then while ok it would definitely not be the 'new staple', but realistically I think I have to reserve judgement on this one and try again sometime, hoping for a better quality bottle (this bottle was purchased from reputable store from where I've had previous different bottles all without issue).

The search continues.

Phil.

[jdaw1]

Phil: we have a section for Tasting Notes. Please do post there your comments on G83.

Convention in the TN section is title threads with the year first: ‟1983 Graham”.

You might also also want to mention it in Corked/Spoilt Ports - Name and Shame, with a link to your TN thread.

Thank you.