Dating bottles from the sello

[jdaw1]

Please, does anybody have a recipe for distinguishing IVP and IVDP sellos? And the date when usage switched?

Pictures of each type would be most helpful.

Thank you.

[Andy Velebil]

Well the old style changed around the early 1970's, I've seen many 1970's with the old style but by 1975 the new one was in place. So it had have happened between that time. exactly when I don't know.

[Roy Hersh]

Julian,

To the best of my knowledge, there's zero correlation between the numbers on the selo and any date, especially for a particular Port's bottling.

[jdaw1]

Even zero correlation for the letters? Is there a table of letter pairs with date ranges? (Or rather, is there a table that the IVDP has not deemed a State Secret?)

[uncle tom]

If I understand the system correctly, the IVDP issue batches of selos to the producers, who then record and report back the serial numbers, as and when they are used.

Some producers have drawers containing little bundles of leftover selos that appear to go back years; but can, I assume, still be used..

Tom

[jdaw1]

So the IVDP has, and will of course open transparent government sort-of-thing publish the dates of first issue. Use might be much later, but cannot be earlier.

[uncle tom]

and will of course open transparent government sort-of-thing

Does Portugal have an FOI law? I've never heard it mentioned..

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

If I understand the system correctly, the IVDP issue batches of selos to the producers, who then record and report back the serial numbers, as and when they are used.

Some producers have drawers containing little bundles of leftover selos that appear to go back years; but can, I assume, still be used..

Tom

Roy had an article explaining this some time ago. The numbers and letters are random and they are not tracked in any type of order. Batches sent to producers are recorded by the IVDP then as a producer uses "X" number of Selo's they record the numbers they used (ex: A12003 thru A12500) along with some other basic info and then they send that info back to the IVDP.

[Daniel R.]

and will of course open transparent government sort-of-thing

Does Portugal have an FOI law? I've never heard it mentioned..

Tom

Yes. The regulatory agency is CADA (http://www.cada.pt/). Website is in Portuguese but contains the relevant act, decisions, etc.

[marc j.]

Julian,

A little while ago I discussed this very topic with the head of the IVDP and it seems that the Selo code can give a general idea of when the wine was bottled, but that's about it. Older bottlings in particular are very tough to date with any precision.

[DRT]

I think Julian has perhaps asked this question in a way that is resulting in people not understanding what the question actually is.

What I think Julian is trying to establish is "when did the style of Selo used on port bottles change from the old style, which has a larger bulb where the number is printer, to the modern style that we see today?"

This is not an attempt to discover which port is in which bottle by interrogating the Selo number, it is a question of "if a bottle has this style or that style of Selo on it, which era is it from?"

I am entirely confident that Julian will let me know if I am wrong.

{My prediction is that (a) the question I am now asking is the same as the question Julian wants and answer to, and; (b) Julian will tell us that he answered the question correctly, but those who responded failed to understand it for reasons not of his making. For the record, this is a position I absolutely agree with.}

[uncle tom]

What I think Julian is trying to establish is "when did the style of Selo used on port bottles change from the old style, which has a larger bulb where the number is printer, to the modern style that we see today?"

Note the selos on Taylor's recently released Scion..

..they've dug out some old style ones!

http://www.thewinedetective.co.uk/wp-co ... lack21.jpg

Tom

[DRT]

I think the Selo on the Scion is the new style...

New.png (151.57 KiB) Viewed 7292 times

Whereas this old Burmester Colhieta has the old style Selo...

Old.png (154.25 KiB) Viewed 7292 times

[uncle tom]

I think the Selo on the Scion is the new style...

There appear to be slight variations of the old style - note that the band over the top of the Scion is narrower than current selos, and that there is a single serial number without the letters and numbers above and below that the modern ones have.

Tom

[DRT]

You're right, Tom, that Scion looks like a variant between the two styles. I seem to remember reading something about them being specially made for this wine but can't be sure.

Do you know anyone who has lots of old, young and middle-aged bottles in his cellar and a digital camera?

[uncle tom]

Do you know anyone who has lots of old, young and middle-aged bottles in his cellar and a digital camera?

The camera's the tricky bit - I havn't seen it for ages..

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

Selo's can be had in smaller sizes. I've seen smaller ones on 1/2 bottles and .50cl bottles as well. A 40 year old Rozes tawny in a special 1-liter short squat bottle I have has a very narrow band to fit between two small grooves in the top of the bottle. So the actual size can vary depending on the bottle size and shape. As I stated earlier the change in the overall design was sometime in the early 1970's.

[JacobH]

Although this probably doesn’t help jdaw1, I notice that the regulations (pdf) changed this year. There are now four types of selo which can be used on bottles >20cl with different widths and lengths. Mini bottles are sealed with a selo on the screw-cap.