2010 Declarations

[JacobH]

We don’t seem to have a proper 2010 declarations thread yet.

In a (partial) reversal of 2010, we now know that the Taylor Fladgate Partnership aren’t putting out any Vintage Port for 2010 whilst the Symingtons have declared their full range of SQVPs (Vesuvio, Bomfim, Malvedos, Canais &c. &c).

With the much lamented demise of InfoPortWine, for the first time in many years I don’t really have much sense of an overview as to what else has been declared and will be available. Has anyone gone for a full declaration or will we just see SQVPs?

The Port I’m most interested in trying is the Quinta dos Canais since this will be the first Cockburn Vintage Port since the Symington take-over and their (unreleased) 2009 was fabulous. I just hope we don’t have to wait 10 years for them to release it to try it!

[uncle tom]

It seems a little odd that the Symingtons have gone for the full monty of SQs, while the TFP have gone for the zero option..

I believe Oscar is declaring Vale d'Agodinho 2010

[RonnieRoots]

What I find interesting is that the Symington press release speaks of big wines that will age for a long time (at least that's what they say for the Dow Ribeira), and TFP did not declare because of lack of tannin structure. How can this be? Looking forward to seeing some tasting notes on the declared ports to see how they really are.

[uncle tom]

Looking forward to seeing some tasting notes on the declared ports to see how they really are

The Vesuvio and Senhora da Ribeira are on the list for tomorrow's BFT event in London, so you shouldn't have to wait too long!

[JacobH]

What I find interesting is that the Symington press release speaks of big wines that will age for a long time (at least that's what they say for the Dow Ribeira), and TFP did not declare because of lack of tannin structure. How can this be? Looking forward to seeing some tasting notes on the declared ports to see how they really are.

The fact that they say they will release these wines ‟when they are ready to drink” in about 10 years’ time somewhat militates against that!

Anyway, my impression of the harvest in 2010 was it was very variable and so it may just be that the Symingtons got more of the right grapes in at the right time than Taylor Fladgate?

[uncle tom]

so it may just be that the Symingtons got more of the right grapes in at the right time than Taylor Fladgate

I'm sure that will be the Symington line - and it's not hard to imagine what the TFP would say in reply..

..methinks this is the start of a debate that will run for fifty years!

[RonnieRoots]

so it may just be that the Symingtons got more of the right grapes in at the right time than Taylor Fladgate

I'm sure that will be the Symington line - and it's not hard to imagine what the TFP would say in reply..

..methinks this is the start of a debate that will run for fifty years!

Given that they still don't agree on 91/92 I think you may well be right.

[Andy Velebil]

so it may just be that the Symingtons got more of the right grapes in at the right time than Taylor Fladgate

I'm sure that will be the Symington line - and it's not hard to imagine what the TFP would say in reply..

..methinks this is the start of a debate that will run for fifty years!

And we'll all have a blast debating it

[Andy Velebil]

Anyway, my impression of the harvest in 2010 was it was very variable and so it may just be that the Symingtons got more of the right grapes in at the right time than Taylor Fladgate?

Yes, very true. Also remember the Sym's own a huge amount of properties all over the Douro. So they do have the ability to pick and chose the best small lots from various areas/Quinta's to make a small amount of good quality Port.

Time will tell, and as mentioned, we'll have a fun time debating this over the coming years.

[JacobH]

Yes, very true. Also remember the Sym's own a huge amount of properties all over the Douro. So they do have the ability to pick and chose the best small lots from various areas/Quinta's to make a small amount of good quality Port.

That almost implies that SQVP isn’t from single quintas

[RAYC]

Yes, very true. Also remember the Sym's own a huge amount of properties all over the Douro. So they do have the ability to pick and chose the best small lots from various areas/Quinta's to make a small amount of good quality Port.

That almost implies that SQVP isn’t from single quintas

Are any of the Symington Quintas that did produce a 2010 VP (Vesuvio, Bomfim, Malvedos, Canais, Cavadinha etc.) close by to Vargellas/Terra Feita/Roeda/Panescal (such that you would expect viticultural conditions to be broadly the same across the properties)?

[JacobH]

I think the closest two are Roêda and Bomfim, though Cavadinha is close to Terra Feita and Canais to Vargellas (albeit on different sides of the river). However, with micro-climates in the Douro complicating everything, I don’t think you can draw too many comparisons between them.

PS. This seems like a legitimate reason to plug the map.

[uncle tom]

Physical proximity is going to be no more significant than aspect and elevation.

[RAYC]

Physical proximity is going to be no more significant than aspect and elevation.

I suppose i thought that two adjoining properties may have very similar aspects/elevations!

And harvest/picking-date decisions presumably also feature as a factor?

[uncle tom]

And harvest/picking-date decisions presumably also feature as a factor?

Massively so - brinkmanship can sometimes pay dividends, but also spell disaster, coupled to which is the need to keep the picking gangs working, and getting the grapes in before the weather breaks.

The producers like to portray the harvest as a perfectly oiled, calm and scientific exercise; but in practice it's day-by-day juggling act, that sometimes gets very stressful..

[DRT]

A very interesting debate, but somewhat missing the point.

The Fladgate Partnership declared a small quantity of excellent VP in the same year as they opened their flagship hotel.

The Symingtons release a full range of SQVP in a non-classic year.

Is there a flaw? No. Is there commercial logic? Yes.

This doesn't seem like a mysterious debate to me.

[Andy Velebil]

A very interesting debate, but somewhat missing the point.

The Fladgate Partnership declared a small quantity of excellent VP in the same year as they opened their flagship hotel.

The Symingtons release a full range of SQVP in a non-classic year.

Is there a flaw? No. Is there commercial logic? Yes.

This doesn't seem like a mysterious debate to me.

Boring

[Andy Velebil]

And harvest/picking-date decisions presumably also feature as a factor?

Massively so - brinkmanship can sometimes pay dividends, but also spell disaster, coupled to which is the need to keep the picking gangs working, and getting the grapes in before the weather breaks.

The producers like to portray the harvest as a perfectly oiled, calm and scientific exercise; but in practice it's day-by-day juggling act, that sometimes gets very stressful..

Tom is spot on. It's a massive juggling act each year to determine which blocks to pick and when. When to schedule the picking teams to arrive and what do you do with them if there is an extended pause in the picking due to weather or other issues. Where and which lots to ferment seperately or together. Where to ferment and store the young wines. Transporting grapes and finished wines to other places. And that is just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to the incredibly complex logistics of running a harvest. God forbid if any of those things fail or stumble, having the potential to ruin an entire harvest.

[Andy Velebil]

I think the closest two are Roêda and Bomfim, though Cavadinha is close to Terra Feita and Canais to Vargellas (albeit on different sides of the river). However, with micro-climates in the Douro complicating everything, I don’t think you can draw too many comparisons between them.

PS. This seems like a legitimate reason to plug the map.

Precisely, the micro climates are very unique to each Quinta. So while there may be some similarities in small plots within nearby Quinta's the overall differences most likely overshadow it.

And size can also play a part. Example, if Quinta "A" is 500 hectares and next door is Quinta "B" which is only 200 hectares. Quinta "A" has far more grapes to chose from when it comes to making a top Port. Not only in terms of quality but quantity as well.

[RonnieRoots]

I would think that both the Symingtons and TFP have enough top class vineyards, knowledge, capacity etc. to produce vintage quality juice if the conditions are right. So Derek's argument makes more sense (and is actually not as boring as Andy suggests).

In the end it does come down to a question of economics. And there it is interesting to see the difference between TFP and Symington, because whereas the Symington hold back most of their stock for late release, the TFP SQVP's are released immediately after bottling. That means that the economic situation on the short term (be it the market situation or the cash flow needs of the company) can play a much bigger role in the TFP decision than it will in the case of the Symingtons.

Let's just suppose that TFP decides that the current market isn't ideal for SQVP sales (and perhaps they're still sitting on large stocks of '08), the company is limited as to how much it can produce in total (due to beneficio rules), and could do with some cash (maybe because they just built a new hotel)... I know what I would do: use the juice for my major moneymakers, in TFP's case: LBV and Bin 27.

[RAYC]

Ronnie - in the UK at least, the TFP SQVPs (and indeed Guimaraens, nominally the second division multi-vineyard blend) don't seem to be released immediately (TVVV being a notable exception). Currently on sale are the Roeda 97, Vargellas 01 and FG 96/98. Also note that Ribera (and Bomfim?) from the Symington stable does seem to have been released immediately in recent vintages (at least on a limited scale)

With your and Derek's theory, you seem to be suggesting that TFP are being actively misleading in the reasons given in their St. George's day announcements. I'm not sure I buy that, or that the commercial considerations you posit would prevent them doing a small bottling of one or other if they thought the quality was really there in their grapes for a VP.

[uncle tom]

The Fladgate Partnership declared a small quantity of excellent VP in the same year as they opened their flagship hotel.

I don't believe that had the slightest influence on the decision making. Having a fourth declaration in a decade was never the plan, but they had stunning wines to hand..

[JacobH]

With your and Derek's theory, you seem to be suggesting that TFP are being actively misleading in the reasons given in their St. George's day announcements. I'm not sure I buy that, or that the commercial considerations you posit would prevent them doing a small bottling of one or other if they thought the quality was really there in their grapes for a VP.

Your post implies that winemakers are never less than candid with their press-releases (especially when declaring ‟Vintage of Century” and the like ).

I’d be surprised, though, if the decision to declare 2009 was connected with the decision to open the Yeatman. I would have thought (and hoped) that the hotel was set up to be at arms-length Port company, so that if it all went wrong horribly it wouldn’t take the Port business down with it. But also I just can’t see them being that cynical about a decision to declare. There’s a big step from thinking about existing stock and next year’s vintage to thinking about cash flow in another part of the business.

[RAYC]

With your and Derek's theory, you seem to be suggesting that TFP are being actively misleading in the reasons given in their St. George's day announcements. I'm not sure I buy that, or that the commercial considerations you posit would prevent them doing a small bottling of one or other if they thought the quality was really there in their grapes for a VP.

Your post implies that winemakers are never less than candid with their press-releases (especially when declaring ‟Vintage of Century” and the like ).

I've no doubt that press-releases are often less than candid. But if that were the case in this instance, it seems odd that they have done so to play down the quality of their harvest (by essentially saying in their press releases that there was not the quality for VP there).

Surely a much stronger selling story would have been that the harvest had attractive qualities and that elegant, early maturing SQVP could have been produced, but that the decision was made - bearing in mind the strength of 09 and potential of 11 - to allocate these best grapes to strengthen the reserves set aside for ruby and LBV...

Having a fourth declaration in a decade was never the plan, but they had stunning wines to hand..

I can just picture Glenn shaking his head and tutting as he reads this!

[Glenn E.]

I can just picture Glenn shaking his head and tutting as he reads this!

It has certainly been an interesting read!

[Andy Velebil]

So Derek's argument makes more sense (and is actually not as boring as Andy suggests).

Apparently the US humor was lost on those on the other side of the pond. The comment was meant as a joke.

[uncle tom]

Tried the Vesuvio and Dow Senhora da Ribeira yesterday - both very sound wines, with good prospects; neither giving any hint that the vintage was in any way below par.

The strange thing for me is that if I'd had them blind, I would probably have got them the wrong way round. The Senhora was rich and opulent, expressing the style that I've come to associate with a young Vesuvio, while the Vesuvio was quite dry and austere.

Last year I noted that the 2009 Vesuvio was 'more like a Dow than a Vesuvio' - which leaves me thinking there's been a style shift here..

[JacobH]

When I tried the 2009 Sr da Ribera against the Bomfim, the latter seemed markedly more Dow-ish than the former (perhaps unsurprisingly since Bomfim has been the main Dow quinta for most of the last Century). Whilst not doubting that a change of style could take place, I wonder if that could affect the perception of the two Ports?

[uncle tom]

I wonder if that could affect the perception of the two Ports?

I don't have a particular benchmark expectation of the SdR style as I do a Vesuvio or Dow. My observation is that the V09 and V10 are closer to my expectations of a Dow wine than they are of a Vesuvio, whereas the SdR10 (- what is our 'official' abbreviation for that SQ..?) - generally ticked the right boxes for Vesuvio..

[JacobH]

Since consistently should never get in the way of a good theory, I'm quite tempted to ignore my previous comments about microclimates and speculate that it's something to do with them being directly opposite to one another over the river...

Anyway, I really haven't drunk enough of the SdR to know what I think of it. (I think only quite a few vintages are in existence in any case). Presumably in the future it will make a good comparison, since there aren't many port brands that have two SQVPs declared.

[DRT]

So Derek's argument makes more sense (and is actually not as boring as Andy suggests).

Apparently the US humor was lost on those on the other side of the pond. The comment was meant as a joke.

Hey man, call me boring again and I'll have to kick your scrawny Yanky butt

[DRT]

Since consistently should never get in the way of a good theory, I'm quite tempted to ignore my previous comments about microclimates and speculate that it's something to do with them being directly opposite to one another over the river...

Anyway, I really haven't drunk enough of the SdR to know what I think of it. (I think only quite a few vintages are in existence in any case). Presumably in the future it will make a good comparison, since there aren't many port brands that have two SQVPs declared.

My theory is quite simple.

1. 2011 will be a general declaration. Now is a good time for a shipper to keep his powder dry.

2. Some shippers had good commercial or sentimental reasons to declare 2009. Some worked, some worked less well.

3. 2010 is not a great vintage, but any shipper worth their salt could produce a very sound wine if they wanted to.

4. Vesuvio has been produced every year apart from two disastrous vintages since 1989.

5. Producing two SQVPs is more credible than producing one.

There is nothing strange to me in what has happened with the 2010 vintage.

[Glenn E.]

(- what is our 'official' abbreviation for that SQ..?)

Given precedent, since it is a Dow property it should start with D. If we are allowing three-letter abbreviations, then DSR probably makes the most sense. If only two, then DS and DR seem equally sub-optimal to me.

[Andy Velebil]

So Derek's argument makes more sense (and is actually not as boring as Andy suggests).

Apparently the US humor was lost on those on the other side of the pond. The comment was meant as a joke.

Hey man, call me boring again and I'll have to kick your scrawny Yanky butt

only if you're hefty Scottish arse can catch me

[DRT]

So Derek's argument makes more sense (and is actually not as boring as Andy suggests).

Apparently the US humor was lost on those on the other side of the pond. The comment was meant as a joke.

Hey man, call me boring again and I'll have to kick your scrawny Yanky butt

only if you're hefty Scottish arse can catch me

Fair point

[Alex Bridgeman]

We never did produce a summary of the vintage ports we found shipped from the 2010 vintage so I thought I would resurrect this thread and create just such a summary. Further up the thread there is mention of:

• Quinta do Vesuvio
• Quinta do Bomfim
• Quinta de Malvedos
• Quinta das Canais
• Quinta de Vale d'Agodinho from Quevedo

And a few hours ago I encountered a bottle of 2010 Quinta das Lamelas

[RAYC]

Following a few wine searcher links, the following also appear to have been declared

- Dourum Quinta do Castelo Melhor
- Kopke Quinta de Sao Luiz
- Quinta da Revolta
- Quinta Seara D'ordeans
- Rozes
- Sao Pedro Das Aguias

There are listings also for Crasto, Presidential and Calem, but it is not clear to me whether those are genuine or errors.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Updated list incorporating Rob's findings and some more of my notes.

• Bulas
• Duorum Castelo Melhor
• Pocas Quinta da Santa Barbara
• Quevedo Quinta Vale d'Agodinho
• Quinta da Revolta
• Quinta das Lamelas
• Quinta do Crasto
• Quinta do Estanho
• Quinta do Tedo
• Quinta Seara d’Ordeans
• Ramos Pinto Quinta da Ervamoira
• Rozes Sao Pedro das Aguias

Sogevinus

• Burmester Quinta do Arnozelo
• Calem
• Kopke Quinta de Sao Luiz

Symington Family Estates

• Cockburn Quinta das Canais
• Dow Quinta do Bomfim
• Dow Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira
• Graham Quinta dos Malvedos
• Quinta do Vesuvio

• Vista Alegre

Links to other vintages:
2023, 2022, 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005

[Alex Bridgeman]

2010 list updated - now nearly twice the size as before!

[jdaw1]

Kopke Quinta Sao Luiz 2010 Vintage