‟It's becoming rare to find a wine under 90 points”

[jdaw1]

The wine-rating equivalent of a B grade (85-89 points) can mean a wine might be hard to sell or might not show up on certain store shelves, especially when the competition scores 90 points or more. For example, when I asked Chad Watkins, assistant manager of Gary's Wines in Wayne, N.J., to recommend "a few good 88-point wines," he couldn't help me since "90 is the lowest number on our rating filter."

Whole article worth reading.

[g-man]

I should start posting more 100 pters so people can start reading my TNs!

[christopherpfaff]

I´m sure that there many wines with 96-100 points, that the most normal wine drinkes do not like very much.

I think the problem is the attitude, that many wine buyers don´t ask themself "what wine I like really" the ask only "what wine has a good rate".

Its funny, if I´m right, when Parker starts in the beginning of the 80s he wants to have enlightened consumers, but he achieved the contrary - "robot-like" consumers.

[uncle tom]

It is a singularly ridiculous and uninformative scoring system, especially for wines that need time to mature.

[WS1]

Tom,

the system is all right; how the people abuse the system is the problem. Also I am afraid to say your idea of cellaring is currently not in fashion. In the old days cellars were inherited and people were drinking the wines/ports of their parents/grant parents.
Only recently with new wine making and scoring everything was brought fwd. Too some extend this is good (generally better wines), but to the other it becomes ridiculous.

regards

WS1 who is also a fan of the out of fashion cellaring

[Andy Velebil]

The wine-rating equivalent of a B grade (85-89 points) can mean a wine might be hard to sell or might not show up on certain store shelves, especially when the competition scores 90 points or more. For example, when I asked Chad Watkins, assistant manager of Gary's Wines in Wayne, N.J., to recommend "a few good 88-point wines," he couldn't help me since "90 is the lowest number on our rating filter."

Whole article worth reading.

That is the stupidest thing I've heard a wine shop do. There is no reason a wine shop shouldn't carry wines under 90 points. The percentage of over 90 points is quite small in the realm of all wine made. Most of those in that upper score range tend to be fairly expensive for the average person. By that I mean only a small percentage of wine drinkers regularly spend more than $20-30 (USD) on a bottle of wine (the price range most wine start at in this rating category). IMO a wine shop is severely limiting their potential revenue by restricting their inventory to only 90+ point wines.

And before anyone gets all huffy over the 100 point system, it is no better or no worse than any other scoring system in use today.

[uncle tom]

And before anyone gets all huffy over the 100 point system, it is no better or no worse than any other scoring system in use today.

Except mine.

Relative scoring, not absolute scoring. Give 5% of the wines you drink a score of ten, 5% a score of zero, and 10% each the numbers one to nine.

Score twice - for immature wines rate for current drinking and anticipated performance when mature. For mature wines rate for current drinking and anticipated drinking ten years hence.

Examples:

I rate a Taylor 2009 as 6-10 > above average already and with every prospect of becoming a classic.

Sandeman 1963 I rate as 4-3 > already past its best and on the way down.

[Andy Velebil]

And before anyone gets all huffy over the 100 point system, it is no better or no worse than any other scoring system in use today.

Except mine.

Only because it's yours

[DRT]

I really do like Tom's scoring system. It is the only one I have ever tried to use and the only one I find meaningful.

Ferreira 1815 and Taylor 2009 each rated from 1 (or is it 80?) to 100 or 1 (or is it 15?) to 20 or *, **, ***, **** or ***** does not really tell me anything about the comparison between the two wines or whether or not the critic was judging past, current or future drinking pleasure. Le Methode du Archer defines current and future and, if applied correctly, dismisses the past. That is a good way to score wine and give the buyer useful information.

[PhilW]

The only issue I would have with Tom's system is that it is dependent on consistently drinking ports of all qualities, and would be biased by variation due to the relative nature. For example (simplified):
- year 1 : Tom drinks 5 rubies, 25 LBVs and 75 VPs of various ages
- year 2 : Tom drinks only his 8 cases of NN31 and 4 bottles of F55
Assuming in year 2 Tom prefers the NN31 to the F70, the F70 now must score zero, since by his rule 5% of port tasted scores zero. In previous year, the best LBV would likely have scored 7-10pts.

The standard system of 0-100 (which personally I'm not keen on) means that the majority of scores are in the 80-100 range, and there is nothing to stop people providing a current and separate future potential score. The most important thing when providing any form of numerical rating is to provide clear indication of what the rating represents; sadly that is often not done.

[Glenn E.]

The only issue I would have with Tom's system is that it is dependent on consistently drinking ports of all qualities, and would be biased by variation due to the relative nature.

This is my problem with it as well.

The way I see it, the 100-point scale has not suffered from "score creep" as many like to claim. The way I use the 100-point scale it is absolute, which means that as winemakers get better and better at their craft they will naturally produce better and better wine which is deserving of better and better scores.

Secondarily, I don't drink wines < 80 points. I don't want to drink wines < 80 points. There's very little advantage in price to be obtained by descending below 80 points, so why bother? It's not that I only use 20 points of the 100 point scale, it's that I only drink wines that deserve to be rated in the last 20 points of the 100 point scale. The occasional rating in the 70s notwithstanding.

The main problem with the 100-point scale is that people use it in different ways. When you see a rating, was that a rating of the wine as it is drinking now, or a rating of the taster's perceived overall quality of the wine? That part of Tom's system I like, but I'd prefer to simply give two 100-point scale ratings.

And if proven accurate over time, I'd prefer to switch my ratings to stocks so that I could then afford more Port.

[uncle tom]

the 100-point scale has not suffered from "score creep" as many like to claim.

Oh yes it has!

Look up the original definition of the 100pt system and apply it correctly; 80pts should represent a good score. Look up scores from twenty five years ago, such as those by Suckling - even by his pretentious standards, they are much lower than seen today.

Winemakers love to tout the line that they are making better wines than ever before. True to a point, but only a marginal difference. The best improvements have been at the bottom end of the price range.

Phil makes the point that if I radically changed my drinking habits, that could have a strange impact on the scores I make. True, but the point is that I don't radically change my consumption, and have strict 'house rules' for what I drink at home. I have even analysed the determinant factors I deploy for selecting a bottle (46 in total..) and now use the computer to select my next bottle.

Moreover, whilst I may be a bit over-zealous in that department, I think most serious wine-drinkers are pretty consistant too.

Double scoring with the 100pt system would be infinitely more informative, but people don't do it - the proponents of the 100pt scale are singularly blind to the critical issue of maturation.

As a means of rating heavily filtered table wines intended for immediate consumption, the 100pt system has some merit, but it's deployment on classed growth claret or vintage port is hugely uninformative and idiotic.

[PhilW]

Regarding Tom's system, I should probably have added that while it works well for him (providing he does not radically change his consumption as previously discussed), it would only work for comparing two people both using the same system if their consumption profile was also similar, otherwise two people would have to score the same wine differently despite feeling similarly about it. Question for Tom - has the average age of consumed bottle over the last five years stayed roughly static, or has it increased? I would have guessed the latter (and hence introduced bias if the assumption of older=better approximately holds), but I might be wrong.

Of course in the end, all the issues with all of the systems mentioned above come down to the difficulty of defining the meaning of the score, and keeping that meaning consistent both over time and between people, an extremely challenging task even for one person, never mind a group; and that is before raising issues of whether different categories of port (e.g. LBV vs SQVP [whatever that means - see other thread] vs VP etc] should be scored as a single group, or separately. The best any of us can do is find what works for ourselves and then be very clear what we mean when quoting to others; or when scoring as a group, being very clear what the values on the scale mean.

[DRT]

For what it is worth I think that all scoring systems relating to wine are, at best, relatively useless. Beauty is in the palate of the taster. No two people get the same from any wine and most of what is written is influenced by group think and/or label bias. This is not an objective subject.

What I like about Tom's system is that it has two assessments - the now and the future. The 100pt system has one dimension, which is limited in its helpfulness to me. I concede that Tom's system would be compromised if adopted universally because drinking habits differ enormously. In extreme circumstances Black Nun could earn 10-10 and Taylor 1900 1-1. But for most of us here we could smooth the edges and come up with scores that are meaningful.

I think the 100 point system is aimed at everyone and cannot cope with what that entails. Tom's system is aimed at people who have a particular drinking pattern and, so long as the comparisons are contained within like groups, is very helpful to those who could use it.

[Glenn E.]

Winemakers love to tout the line that they are making better wines than ever before. True to a point, but only a marginal difference. The best improvements have been at the bottom end of the price range.

Only a marginal difference? Your bias is showing. Besides, if as you say the best improvements have been made at the bottom end of the price range then that supports my theory because the bottom end of the price range is where most of the 80-point wines used to reside. This is further compounded by self-selection of the wines consumed - why bother purchasing and tasting an 80-point wine when a 90-point wine is similarly priced? And if you only drink occasionally, like me, then why bother with 90-point wines at all? I'd rather pay the slight upgrade to drink wines rated 92 or 93... or 95 for a special occasion. One of the big name reviewers - I think it was Parker but it's only a vague memory - has said essentially the same thing. He no longer bothers with merely "good" wines because "excellent" ones are now so affordable. That's not score creep, that's improved selection.

Your system is relative, which makes it nearly useless to anyone who does not know the drinking habits of the scorer in great detail. A 5-5 from you and a 5-5 from Derek are virtually guaranteed to mean different things. And that's if your system is being used correctly. When not used properly, who knows what either score means. It also doesn't work if the scorer's consumption pattern changes from one year to the next... something that mine does constantly. It is difficult enough to manage perceptual differences caused by palate variation from tasting to tasting.

If the 100-point scale is used correctly, a 90-point rating from you and a 90-point rating from Derek should mean the same thing, and because of that should be useful information for others. Which is really the only point of collecting ratings on a web site like this one - to have a database of useful information for others to use.

Of course in the end, all the issues with all of the systems mentioned above come down to the difficulty of defining the meaning of the score, and keeping that meaning consistent both over time and between people, an extremely challenging task even for one person, never mind a group; and that is before raising issues of whether different categories of port (e.g. LBV vs SQVP [whatever that means - see other thread] vs VP etc] should be scored as a single group, or separately. The best any of us can do is find what works for ourselves and then be very clear what we mean when quoting to others; or when scoring as a group, being very clear what the values on the scale mean.

Agreed.

I still find it easiest to start with a word - fair, good, excellent, outstanding, etc - and then convert that to an appropriate number on the 100-point scale. I feel that results in more consistent scoring for me, because the numbers still don't mean all that much when taken by themselves. But when the Port hits my mouth, it's easy to think "that's a really good Port. No, it's better than that... it's excellent."

And "good" still starts at 80. I just don't drink merely "good" Ports anymore, except by accident.

What I like about Tom's system is that it has two assessments - the now and the future.

I agree that two assessments would be more useful than one, but I think that simply rating a Port twice using the 100-point scale (or 20-point scale) would be more useful to more people because they are absolute scales, not relative.

[Andy Velebil]

Glenn is spot on (and so is Phil on the part Glenn quoted and bolded) regarding scoring.

As for the quality...Tom, what are you basing your opinion on?

I ask as I have friends in the wine trade here and I can tell you from talking to them, producers in Portugal, and reading views from other winemakers in other countries, the overall quality of all wine has gone up. Advancements in technology, viticulture, winemaking, etc. has had a measurable effect on the overall quality of wines in all price points.

There are also far more wineries in the world now then there were 30-40 years ago. And even most long established wineries are producing more variety of products now then they did 20-30+ years ago. So you have a much larger pool of wines to pick from. In the past you had a small number of top producers, a few more in the middle, and those in the bottom. There generally was a large quality gap between these tiers. That old easily defined line is now becoming very blurred....just look at the lawsuits regarding who should be allowed Grand Cru status in France as just one example.

[RAYC]

I also like Tom's way of doing things, albeit it's a long time since i've seen him venture a score in public!!

That said, a mark out of 100 is rarely provided in a vacuum - there's nearly always an indication of whether the port is one for the future, drinking nicely now etc. etc.

[griff]

Rating systems work for the rater. Sometimes it can be as simple as "buy", "don't buy". It is when one tries to follow a rater's ratings where one can be led astray.

As for score inflation, why would wine rating any different to most other attempts to place an ordinal system on a subjective measurement? Humans often start off with lower ratings that improve with time. It is seen commonly in education, both at a system level e.g. secondary (proportion of A's given), tertiary (proportion of firsts given) as well as at a personal level (teachers rating of students). Wine could well be getting better, however top wines have been made for many a year. The number of top scores for most all critics increases over time, thus suggesting score inflation.

[uncle tom]

A 5-5 from you and a 5-5 from Derek are virtually guaranteed to mean different things

Indeed, and all the more informative for being so. Both the wine makers and the consumers have a big problem with the titan wine commentators, and their arrogant pronouncements.

Those who know port really well often find themselves disagreeing with the 'big name' scores whilst broadly agreeing amongst themselves, and I suspect other wine regions suffer the same problem.

Too many of the prima donnas of wine commentary are jacks of all trades, and masters of little or nothing.

The larger the pool of opinion (which can then be statistically analysed) the more informed the consumer becomes.

As for the quality...Tom, what are you basing your opinion on?

The last twenty years or so has seen the scientifically led industrialisation of the production of ordinary table wine - plonk has become much more drinkable, and the quality gulf between cheap and expensive wines has significantly narrowed.

But the top end of the market is still heavily dependant on the skill and experiance of those involved in production - new technology affords some assistance, but I don't buy the line that it's a massive game-changer.

(and yes Rob, I will try to back into the habit of posting my scores again..!)

[g-man]

The last twenty years or so has seen the scientifically led industrialisation of the production of ordinary table wine - plonk has become much more drinkable, and the quality gulf between cheap and expensive wines has significantly narrowed.

But the top end of the market is still heavily dependant on the skill and experiance of those involved in production - new technology affords some assistance, but I don't buy the line that it's a massive game-changer.

(and yes Rob, I will try to back into the habit of posting my scores again..!)

I agree with uncle tom here. the wines at the top end of the spectrum have always been fantastic, it's certainly a bit more consistent now even on bad vintages, but they were always high scoring wines regardless. There is certainly no score creep on these wines or very marginally at best.

On the lower end yes we do have things like yellow tails at 5$/btl that acutally taste decent and would merit at least an 80 pts.

[Glenn E.]

A 5-5 from you and a 5-5 from Derek are virtually guaranteed to mean different things

Indeed, and all the more informative for being so.

I don't follow. How can a system in which two identical scores deliberately mean different (and, for the most part, unknown) things be more informative than one in which identical scores from different people are supposed to mean the same thing?

Assuming the systems are being used properly and as intended...

If I walk into a store and see a wine rated 5-5 by you and and 5-5 by Derek, I know... well, nothing about that wine because I have no idea what else you've been drinking this rating period. (Which is what, a year? A month? Does a 5-5 mean something different at the start of a rating period than it does at the end?) It might be a good rating. It might be a bad rating. It could even be both good and bad since the two 5s are rating different things on different relative scales.

If I walk into a store and see a wine rated 90 by you and 90 by Derek, I know that you both think it is a very good wine. One of you might be weighing its future development more than the other, but in aggregate you both think it is a very good wine.

The latter is vastly more useful information, even if I don't know anything about your respective palates. But knowledge of the critic's palate is missing from both systems, so that doesn't affect the comparison.

Rating systems work for the rater. Sometimes it can be as simple as "buy", "don't buy". It is when one tries to follow a rater's ratings where one can be led astray.

Precisely. To me, though, that's why a relative system doesn't work as well - it is much easier to be led astray by someone else's relative ratings.

[Andy Velebil]

As for the quality...Tom, what are you basing your opinion on?

The last twenty years or so has seen the scientifically led industrialisation of the production of ordinary table wine - plonk has become much more drinkable, and the quality gulf between cheap and expensive wines has significantly narrowed.

But the top end of the market is still heavily dependant on the skill and experiance of those involved in production - new technology affords some assistance, but I don't buy the line that it's a massive game-changer.

That has to be one of the most incorrect statements I've ever read you post. Lets look just at what Paul Symington posted right here in this forum

Paul Symington wrote: In the old days my father and uncles would have been making very sweet Ports with very little colour because they would have had to run off the lagares when the fermentation temperatures got too high.

We can all agree that most large Port companies have significantly benefited from this "industrialisation" as you put it. Why do you think we now have such good Ports even in non-declared years. Also just look at the quality change of basic tawny's and ruby's over the past 10 years. And we've not even started talking about table wine development in the Douro.

Tom, I challenge you to broaden your horizons outside of the Douro and spend some time speaking with wine makers from other countries, Universities which specialize in viticulture, etc. You will quickly learn that in the past 20-30 years technology has lead to a huge change in viticulture practices at all levels. That change in viticulture technology (strains of root stock, post harvest treatment, satellite technology, cover crops...to name just a few) is a huge driving force.

Of course, one still needs a good winemaker, but it's equally as hard to make a consistently high scoring wine and one that must be consistent over multiple bottling runs a year, over the course of years.

[g-man]

But the top end of the market is still heavily dependant on the skill and experiance of those involved in production - new technology affords some assistance, but I don't buy the line that it's a massive game-changer.

Why do you think we now have such good Ports even in non-declared years. Also just look at the quality change of basic tawny's and ruby's over the past 10 years. And we've not even started talking about table wine development in the Douro.

I don't see tom's comment as the way you perceived it Andy, but I'll let Tom speak for himself.

I took it to mean simply that a high quality wine back then is still a high quality wine now so to the premise that there is a score creep, I would say that for the top end wines there doesn't seem to be.

Discussion of basic tawny's and ruby's goes in line with what we're all saying that even the plonk of yesteryear is now drinkable and can be quite good.

[Andy Velebil]

But the top end of the market is still heavily dependant on the skill and experiance of those involved in production - new technology affords some assistance, but I don't buy the line that it's a massive game-changer.

Why do you think we now have such good Ports even in non-declared years. Also just look at the quality change of basic tawny's and ruby's over the past 10 years. And we've not even started talking about table wine development in the Douro.

I don't see tom's comment as the way you perceived it Andy, but I'll let Tom speak for himself.

I took it to mean simply that a high quality wine back then is still a high quality wine now so to the premise that there is a score creep, I would say that for the top end wines there doesn't seem to be.

Discussion of basic tawny's and ruby's goes in line with what we're all saying that even the plonk of yesteryear is now drinkable and can be quite good.

Tom is saying that advancements in wine making at the top end hasn't been that big of a game changer as it has in the bottom end. I disagree.

[g-man]

But the top end of the market is still heavily dependant on the skill and experiance of those involved in production - new technology affords some assistance, but I don't buy the line that it's a massive game-changer.

Why do you think we now have such good Ports even in non-declared years. Also just look at the quality change of basic tawny's and ruby's over the past 10 years. And we've not even started talking about table wine development in the Douro.

I don't see tom's comment as the way you perceived it Andy, but I'll let Tom speak for himself.

I took it to mean simply that a high quality wine back then is still a high quality wine now so to the premise that there is a score creep, I would say that for the top end wines there doesn't seem to be.

Discussion of basic tawny's and ruby's goes in line with what we're all saying that even the plonk of yesteryear is now drinkable and can be quite good.

Tom is saying that advancements in wine making at the top end hasn't been that big of a game changer as it has in the bottom end. I disagree.

game changer as in better yields?

certainly not a game changer in score no?