1997 Maturity Evaluation, TBH, Mon 16 June 2014

[flash_uk]

This thread was started by DRT. But DRT has asked flash_uk to take over the planning and arrangement of this tasting. So authorship of the first post has been changed by jdaw1 to allow the new organiser to edit the first post. Yes, the date of this first post is before the date of flash_uk joining ThePortForum.

1997 was widely declared and has now reached an age where it would traditionally have been considered old enough to drink. We do not have much experience of this vintage here but I suspect many of us have cases from various shippers and have no idea how they are maturing. Should we do the Port world a service and taste a representative selection from this vintage?

--------------------end of original post------------------

Date: Monday 16 June 2014
Place: The Bung Hole at 57 High Holborn, London WC1V 6DT, +44 20 7831 8365 (streetmap.co.uk, maps.google.co.uk, bing.com).

Attendees confirmed:

1. MPM — Cockburn, Gould Campbell, Infantado, Morgan, Smith Woodhouse, Warre;
2. JDAW — Offley, Sandeman, Sandeman Vau Double Magnum, Sandeman Vau Single;
3. AWGH = Anthony Habert of Stevens Garnier;
4. DJ;
5. IJ (DJ Snr);
6. THRA — Vesuvio & Croft Roeda;
7. CPR1 — Graham;
8. IDJ — Dow, Ferreira & Ramos Pinto;
9. CMAG — Noval;
10. AHB — Martinez;
11. DaveRL — Fonseca & Taylor;
12. RDA (cedars28).

Waiting list:

1. AA (RDA Snr).

Ports likely to be present:

1. Cockburn — MPM;
2. Croft Roeda — THRA;
3. Dow — IDJ;
4. Ferreira — IDJ;
5. Fonseca — DaveRL;
6. Gould Campbell — MPM;
7. Graham — CPR1;
8. Quinta do Infantado — MPM;
9. Martinez — AHB;
10. Morgan — MPM;
11. Quinta do Noval — CMAG;
12. Offley — JDAW from Stevens Garnier;
13. Quinta do Passadouro — Kindly donated by VintageWineAndPort.co.uk;
14. Ramos Pinto — IDJ;
15. Sandeman — JDAW from Stevens Garnier;
16. Sandeman Vau, Double Magnum — JDAW;
17. Sandeman Vau, Single — JDAW from Stevens Garnier;
18. Smith Woodhouse — MPM;
19. Taylor — DaveRL;
20. Quinta do Vesuvio — THRA;
21. Warre — MPM

Current draft of the placemats.

[jdaw1]

Please include me.

[djewesbury]

I misread this as 1977 initially and was confused. I'd happily take part if I can.

[Andy Velebil]

If not in a hurry. Would like to join in this tasting. At some point in 2014 I'll be back in the UK.

[TLW]

Just tried a 1997 Graham, and it is definitely nowhere near ready. That being said, if I am in London at the time you hold the tasting, will happily contribute a bottle or three from the major houses.

[DRT]

OK - we have enough interest so I have updated the first post.

I only have the Roeda to hand and do not intend removing cases from storage for this so might pick up some others over the next few months.

Please declare what you have.

[Deleted_User_1]

Include me please...I have Fonseca and Barros.

[djewesbury]

might pick up some others over the next few months.

If it's generally thought that this is OK for such a young tasting then I will probably do likewise. Will advise.

[DRT]

Include me please...I have Fonseca and Barros.

Done.

[DRT]

might pick up some others over the next few months.

If it's generally thought that this is OK for such a young tasting then I will probably do likewise. Will advise.

Good boy.

[CPR 1]

Count me in please (dates permitting) - I will bring a bottle of Graham

[DRT]

Count me in please (dates permitting) - I will bring a bottle of Graham

First post updated.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Depending on when, count me in too - even if only so I can sit in the corner and lecture everyone at the pointlessness of trying to drink Vintage Port at under 21 years of age (new release port excluded). I'm not wholly sure what we'll get out of a 1997 horizontal, but I haven't tried many recently so it's worth a go and the few I have tried this year were surprisingly approachable.

[djewesbury]

Depending on when, count me in too - even if only so I can sit ion the corner and lecture everyone at the pointlessness of trying to drink Vintage Port at under 21 years of age (new release port excluded). I'm not wholly sure what we'll get out of a 1997 horizontal, but I haven't tried many recently so it's worth a go and the few I have tried this year were surprisingly approachable.

Perhaps the thing about 97 will be that it's maturing early. Maybe we'll have to drink up soon..? Worth checking. Just to be on the safe side.

[RAYC]

I'm in the AHB camp!

Ramos Pinto was very nice earlier this year and - of the usual big established names - the best "current drinker" from the vintage that i have had (albeit i have not yet had Noval 97). Sandeman 97 was also drinking nicely at BFT 2012, and Taylor 97 surprisingly approachable at BBR Walkaround 2011.

I've made my way through most of these over the last couple of years and don't have a burning desire to repeat, so will leave places at this tasting for others to use. However, happy to join in nearer the time if there's still space and extra people are wanted to enable a broader selection.

[idj123]

Please include me-I can put up Dow,Ferreira and QdV

Ian

[DRT]

I'm not wholly sure what we'll get out of a 1997 horizontal, but I haven't tried many recently so it's worth a go and the few I have tried this year were surprisingly approachable.

You have described the point of this tasting perfectly. There is nothing to be gained in leaving this or any other vintage to sail past its prime drinking window. Periodic evaluation allows as to identify shippers that should be drunk-up sooner rather than later and those who should be left to sleep for a decade or more.

[DRT]

I'm in the AHB camp!

Excellent. That means that, like AHB, you completely understand the point of doing this.

[TLW]

If able to attend, I can bring any of Dow, Fonseca, Graham, Niepoort, Taylor, or Warre. Could also bring a 1996 Guimarens for comparison.

[Alex Bridgeman]

I don't have much 1997 on hand - most of it being in storage until its 21st birthday, of course.

What I do have is Martinez, Vesuvio and Warre. (I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big.)

[jdaw1]

(I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big.)

I have two of the ’97 Vau double magnums to hand, which were at risk of being drunk at Christmas. Derek: if one is wanted for this tasting, speak soon. There could be decanting variations.

[Axel P]

My suggestion would be to compare 94 and 97. Dont you think that this might make sense? As the 94s turn 20years next year. Since they are not too expensive even a comparateable tasting should be somewhat reasoneable.

Please put me in

Axel

[Andy Velebil]

I have a variety of 1997's in the cellar to add to this tasting.

[jdaw1]

My suggestion would be to compare 94 and 97. Dont you think that this might make sense? As the 94s turn 20years next year. Since they are not too expensive even a comparateable tasting should be somewhat reasoneable.

Part of DRT’s stated purpose is to test which shippers, perhaps minor shippers, need to be drunk soon, and which shippers need patience. Including the minor shippers means this event might have 20+ bottles. Doubling that to include the ’94s might be, well, fabulous, but also hard work.

If that is correct DRT to comment then this should be just ’97s. I like the idea of 1994-versus-1997, but on a different day.

[DRT]

(I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big.)

I have two of the ’97 Vau double magnums to hand, which were at risk of being drunk at Christmas. Derek: if one is wanted for this tasting, speak soon. There could be decanting variations.

Yes, please. One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.

I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big

No, it isn't. Please decant freehand into a single container.

[DRT]

My suggestion would be to compare 94 and 97. Dont you think that this might make sense? As the 94s turn 20years next year. Since they are not too expensive even a comparateable tasting should be somewhat reasoneable.

Part of DRT’s stated purpose is to test which shippers, perhaps minor shippers, need to be drunk soon, and which shippers need patience. Including the minor shippers means this event might have 20+ bottles. Doubling that to include the ’94s might be, well, fabulous, but also hard work.

I applaud Axel's enthusiasm but agree with JDAW that the purpose of this is to evaluate the 1997 vintage, which is sufficient work for one evening.

[jdaw1]

One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.

I was offering one of the double magnums. Do we really want several double-magnums of SV97 at the same tasting? (‟Do we want!?”, not ‟Does Derek want!?”.)

Precisely what should be done with the one double magnum?

[DRT]

One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.

I was offering one of the double magnums. Do we really want several double-magnums of SV97 at the same tasting? (‟Do we want!?”, not ‟Does Derek want!?”.)

Precisely what should be done with the one double magnum?

It should be kept for this tasting, to be popped and poured if and when we we start to go thirsty.

[Alex Bridgeman]

One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.

I was offering one of the double magnums. Do we really want several double-magnums of SV97 at the same tasting? (‟Do we want!?”, not ‟Does Derek want!?”.)

Precisely what should be done with the one double magnum?

It should be kept for this tasting, to be popped and poured if and when we we start to go thirsty.

URGENT:Lifestyle coach - we need urgent intervention!

[jdaw1]

URGENT:Lifestyle coach - we need urgent intervention!

Why? Derek is allowed to watch us satiate our thirst.

[uncle tom]

Depending on the date, I would be interested. My last serious encounter with the '97s was at Berry's two years ago, and I wasn't overly wowed. Time to re-visit.

Put me down for Vesuvio.

[Alex Bridgeman]

Put me down for Vesuvio.

Better put me down for the Martinez then.

[WS1]

(I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big.)

I have two of the ’97 Vau double magnums to hand, which were at risk of being drunk at Christmas. Derek: if one is wanted for this tasting, speak soon. There could be decanting variations.

Yes, please. One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.

I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big

No, it isn't. Please decant freehand into a single container.

Audouze when drinking himself through palats of old wine found out that rather just opening a bt, decanting it and then drinking it, it is better resting a bt, standing it up well in advance, opening the bt 3 hours in advance (just pull the cork), then decanting it ~10 -30 minutes before consumption made such a difference.
Applying different size containers to a double magnum of Vau 1997 will add in my eyes not a lot with regards to testing the Audouze opening technique. Assuming you use 1-2 halves and 1-2 bts and drinking the rest after opening it, the attempt to recork it would not change anything. If you wait e.g half a year after this refilling exercise you potentially get a closed wine again due to bt shock and the bt get tannin from new cork if applied. If you use half bts/bts with screw cap and fill it up to the top you can conserve for ~ 4-8 weeks the taste as the little air in the beginning does not change a lot. I do this a lot with younger wines since not wanting to drink a whole bt on the night or wanting to drink a red and a white wine in the evening in combination with food. But here it is not about giving the wine time it is rather about avoiding having to drink so much hence I use this approach.
Furthermore my experience with botteling a huge raft of bts when buying Cote du Rhone wine in bulk in various years is that you usually get the bt shock syndrome. I still have some in Magnum, full bt and half bt. The 2007s (fantastic year!) which are still closed down and the German corks I applied are good but have also contributed to the closed down phase they are in at the moment.
The only way to test Audouze approach is to test it on a regular basis on bts you know very well and compare from your experience or tasting notes how good they are being opened with the Audouze approach or without.

regards

WS1

[PhilW]

I agree that a tasting with bottle-pairs of Audouze would be a very interesting exercise, provided that we have sufficient bottles to outweigh normal statistical inter-bottle variation. If possible I suggest that should therefore mean:
- proven stock
- bottles from same case
- bottles with similar (good) fill level
- bottles of mature port
There is then of course the question of whether this method, if it provides advantage, does so more noticeable on either younger or older wines. Testing with a 70 or 77 sounds like a good plan.

[flash_uk]

After some healthy debate during this event, appetite for a 97 horizontal was suitably reinvigorated, and I foolishly volunteered to take up the reins on organisation. As some time has passed since the roster of those interested was assembled, could everyone please reconfirm interest and I will refresh the roster at the top of the thread. The aforementioned healthy debate also determined that as wide a horizontal as possible would be preferable, to allow evaluation of which houses were potentially maturing more rapidly and could be considered for drinking sooner than later.

Now, here are some musings followed by some homework:
- roughly, if we can get say 30 bottles @ say an average of £50 each, and we have the usual max 14 people round the table, that's about £100 to drink about 1.5l of port each
- 14 people at a table with tasting mats covering 30 glasses = big table
- we need to land a date for this...I will have a think about this, but to allow time to assemble juice, it may be more like June (healthy debate aforementioned was inconclusive as to whether 30 houses of port in June was unnatural...)
- listed below is a starter list of 32 houses

Barros,Burmester,Calem,Churchill,Cockburn,Dow,Ferreira,Fonseca,Gould Campbell,Graham,Kopke,Krohn,Martinez,Messias,Morgan,Niepoort,Offley,Pocas,Quarles Harris,Quinta do Crasto,Quinta do Infantado,Quinta do Noval,Quinta do Passadouro,Quinta de la Rosa,Quinta do Vesuvio,Ramos,Royal Oporto,Sandeman,Sandeman Vau,Smith Woodhouse,Taylor,Warre

Of this lot, I can so far find somewhere to get a hold of all bar Calem, Messias, Pocas, Q dl R, Royal Oporto and Sandeman

Homework:
- suggestions please for a venue that can cope with 30 glasses x 14 people. Has this ever been tried at TBH? What about RAF Club...I notice previous tastings there? Was it up to scratch?
- thoughts on ports to add to the above list, or others to take out for whatever reason
- reconfirm if you are interested, and if you are able contribute a bottle or bottles, which would they be

[DRT]

I am in.

If we go for the whole line-up we could perhaps go for a "walk-around" format. Imagine our usual room with no chairs and the table pushed up to the wall with 32 bottles on it and a bundle of glasses on another table at the end. Provided we could restrain ourselves to trade tasting sample sizes we could just work our way through the line-up over the course of the evening in the same way we do at events such as the BFT.

Eating can be done in the main restaurant, as has been done many times before.

[jdaw1]

I am in, and have Sandeman Vau 1997 in double-magnum, which might lessen the volume deficit.

Walk-about format? Deeply untraditional. I much prefer having all my glasses in front of me, so that I have enough to smell, but can start with a small taste and later can revisit to drink.

[uncle tom]

I certainly want to get a better take on this vintage, but I'm not sure about the walk-around idea..

The top sixteen brands and an ocean of glasses would be a better plan IMO

[TLW]

Looks like my trip to London will be a week later than preciously thought - going the wrong way round the world this time. I will probably arrive on the solstice, staying only for a couple of days.

[jdaw1]

30 glasses x 14 people

If we have really have thirty-ish shippers, I would much rather it be split into two sessions, with a gap between. Lunch and dinner, ideally. More than fifteen to eighteen in one session I find overwhelming.

[flash_uk]

30 glasses x 14 people

If we have really have thirty-ish shippers, I would much rather it be split into two sessions, with a gap between. Lunch and dinner, ideally. More than fifteen to eighteen in one session I find overwhelming.

Well that would also make the space logistics much more manageable - 15 glasses per sitting.

[jdaw1]

For the Taylor vertical at the Bunghole on 22^nd March 2013 twenty glasses per person were squeezed onto the table.

With fourteen people at the Bunghole, that is a sensible upper limit: ≤ 20 glasses per person. Though 18 would have been more convenient.

[djewesbury]

I'm (still) in, but I do not favour a walk-around. I also want to have my glasses in front of me and to be able to take my time over them and compare.
I may have access to some slightly larger premises; they might be able to cater for us as well. Do you want me to enquire?

[CPR 1]

Def still in, I too favour focusing on the likely top 14 - 16

[idj123]

Please count me in if there's a space. Almost assuredly too young but in the interests of research.... Less in favour of a walk around approach and limiting to top 14-16 doesn't seem unreasonable.

[flash_uk]

OK many thanks to everyone for ideas and thoughts. Top post updated for confirmations etc. Turning to the "how many" debate, I see really only 3 options:
1. 18 ports in one sitting. Suggested as: Cockburn, Dow, Ferreira, Fonseca, Gould Campbell, Graham, Martinez, Morgan, Niepoort, Offley, Quinta do Noval, Quinta do Vesuvio, Ramos, Sandeman, Sandeman Vau, Smith Woodhouse, Taylor, Warre. Start at 6, usual place.

2. 24 ports tackled as 12 then 12. Could start at say 4 or 5, hit 12, then dinner, then another 12.

3. 32 ports, tackled as 18 then 14. Start at say 1pm with lunch, then 18, then dinner, then 14.

Personally my view is that 1 is straightforward, 3 would mean picking a date where the following day I have no requirement to think/use brain, work, operate heavy equipment etc. Option 2 is clearly a bit of a halfway house. I suspect finding a date that accommodates an early afternoon start followed by a out-of-sight day will prove impossible for a roster of 14 people. Hence I conclude option 1 is the way forward. Depending on the learnings from this scientific endeavour, the option is available to lay on a subsequent event to tackle another 16 or so, to include those missed here plus any that turn out to be spoiled on the day.

Next homework:
- Please advise which bottles anyone would wish to contribute. It looks like I can find almost all the 18 listed here and allowing for shipping costs etc at roughly all in for £1100, being just shy of £80pp between 14. So if everyone would prefer to avoid the hassle of finding and drawing a single bottle from a case offsite somewhere, then we can agree to just source single bottles afresh and be done with it.
- The only ones I see an issue with are the Noval (expensive) and I can't find regular Sandeman. Did it exist given Vau was shipped? Julian has offered to provide Vau...if anyone has the Noval it might be helpful.
- To make up the 18 (helpfully being 3 A4 pages of 6 glasses, I picked Martinez, Morgan, Offley, Ramos beyond what seemed to be an obvious 14. If anyone would rather see something different than these 4, speak now...

[Christopher]

Hi
Can you please put me down plus a guest, initials of guest to be confirmed.
I will bring the Noval, for the second bottle happy to adopt.
Thanks

[uncle tom]

Would suggest option (1), but dropping Ferreira, Morgan, S.Vau and Niepoort, and adding Croft and Noval Nacional.

Reasons:

- Ferreira is not currently a very serious player on the VP front; Morgan is no more, and this was their last vintage; Sandeman Vau was an experiment and, perhaps, maybe an unwise one; '97 is an embarassing vintage for Niepoort, that Dirk admits without caveat.

- Croft, although wholly Roeda (I understand) is a serious contender, Nacional's elevated status deserves the scrutiny of a serious horizontal.

I would prefer a blind presentation.

[flash_uk]

Hi
Can you please put me down plus a guest, initials of guest to be confirmed.
I will bring the Noval, for the second bottle happy to adopt.
Thanks

Done.

[flash_uk]

Would suggest option (1), but dropping Ferreira, Morgan, S.Vau and Niepoort, and adding Croft and Noval Nacional. Reasons:
- Ferreira is not currently a very serious player on the VP front; Morgan is no more, and this was their last vintage; Sandeman Vau was an experiment and, perhaps, maybe an unwise one; '97 is an embarassing vintage for Niepoort, that Dirk admits without caveat.
- Croft, although wholly Roeda (I understand) is a serious contender, Nacional's elevated status deserves the scrutiny of a serious horizontal.

So have dropped Ferreira and Niepoort and added Nacional and Croft Roeda. Leaving Morgan and Vau in for now as it keeps us at 18.

Edit: of course adding the Nacional puts about an extra £70pp onto the cost assuming purchased at retail!