I applaud Axel's enthusiasm but agree with JDAW that the purpose of this is to evaluate the 1997 vintage, which is sufficient work for one evening.jdaw1 wrote:Part of DRT’s stated purpose is to test which shippers, perhaps minor shippers, need to be drunk soon, and which shippers need patience. Including the minor shippers means this event might have 20+ bottles. Doubling that to include the ’94s might be, well, fabulous, but also hard work.Axel P wrote:My suggestion would be to compare 94 and 97. Dont you think that this might make sense? As the 94s turn 20years next year. Since they are not too expensive even a comparateable tasting should be somewhat reasoneable.
1997 Maturity Evaluation, TBH, Mon 16 June 2014
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
I was offering one of the double magnums. Do we really want several double-magnums of SV97 at the same tasting? (‟Do we want!?”, not ‟Does Derek want!?”.)DRT wrote:One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.
Precisely what should be done with the one double magnum?
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
It should be kept for this tasting, to be popped and poured if and when we we start to go thirsty.jdaw1 wrote:I was offering one of the double magnums. Do we really want several double-magnums of SV97 at the same tasting? (‟Do we want!?”, not ‟Does Derek want!?”.)DRT wrote:One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.
Precisely what should be done with the one double magnum?
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
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Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
URGENT:Lifestyle coach - we need urgent intervention!DRT wrote:It should be kept for this tasting, to be popped and poured if and when we we start to go thirsty.jdaw1 wrote:I was offering one of the double magnums. Do we really want several double-magnums of SV97 at the same tasting? (‟Do we want!?”, not ‟Does Derek want!?”.)DRT wrote:One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.
Precisely what should be done with the one double magnum?
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Why? Derek is allowed to watch us satiate our thirst.AHB wrote:URGENT:Lifestyle coach - we need urgent intervention!
- uncle tom
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Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Depending on the date, I would be interested. My last serious encounter with the '97s was at Berry's two years ago, and I wasn't overly wowed. Time to re-visit.
Put me down for Vesuvio.
Put me down for Vesuvio.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
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Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Better put me down for the Martinez then.uncle tom wrote:Put me down for Vesuvio.
Top Ports in 2023: Taylor 1896 Colheita, b. 2021. A perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
2024: Niepoort 1900 Colheita, b.1971. A near perfect Port.
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Audouze when drinking himself through palats of old wine found out that rather just opening a bt, decanting it and then drinking it, it is better resting a bt, standing it up well in advance, opening the bt 3 hours in advance (just pull the cork), then decanting it ~10 -30 minutes before consumption made such a difference.DRT wrote:Yes, please. One decanted into various bottle sizes using various methods of filtration and one decanted into various bottle sizes Audouze.jdaw1 wrote:I have two of the ’97 Vau double magnums to hand, which were at risk of being drunk at Christmas. Derek: if one is wanted for this tasting, speak soon. There could be decanting variations.AHB wrote:(I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big.)
No, it isn't. Please decant freehand into a single container.AHB wrote:I also have Sandeman Vau, but that bottle is too big
Applying different size containers to a double magnum of Vau 1997 will add in my eyes not a lot with regards to testing the Audouze opening technique. Assuming you use 1-2 halves and 1-2 bts and drinking the rest after opening it, the attempt to recork it would not change anything. If you wait e.g half a year after this refilling exercise you potentially get a closed wine again due to bt shock and the bt get tannin from new cork if applied. If you use half bts/bts with screw cap and fill it up to the top you can conserve for ~ 4-8 weeks the taste as the little air in the beginning does not change a lot. I do this a lot with younger wines since not wanting to drink a whole bt on the night or wanting to drink a red and a white wine in the evening in combination with food. But here it is not about giving the wine time it is rather about avoiding having to drink so much hence I use this approach.
Furthermore my experience with botteling a huge raft of bts when buying Cote du Rhone wine in bulk in various years is that you usually get the bt shock syndrome. I still have some in Magnum, full bt and half bt. The 2007s (fantastic year!) which are still closed down and the German corks I applied are good but have also contributed to the closed down phase they are in at the moment.
The only way to test Audouze approach is to test it on a regular basis on bts you know very well and compare from your experience or tasting notes how good they are being opened with the Audouze approach or without.
regards
WS1
"Sometimes too much to drink is barely enough"
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
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Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
I agree that a tasting with bottle-pairs of Audouze would be a very interesting exercise, provided that we have sufficient bottles to outweigh normal statistical inter-bottle variation. If possible I suggest that should therefore mean:
- proven stock
- bottles from same case
- bottles with similar (good) fill level
- bottles of mature port
There is then of course the question of whether this method, if it provides advantage, does so more noticeable on either younger or older wines. Testing with a 70 or 77 sounds like a good plan.
- proven stock
- bottles from same case
- bottles with similar (good) fill level
- bottles of mature port
There is then of course the question of whether this method, if it provides advantage, does so more noticeable on either younger or older wines. Testing with a 70 or 77 sounds like a good plan.
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
After some healthy debate during this event, appetite for a 97 horizontal was suitably reinvigorated, and I foolishly volunteered to take up the reins on organisation. As some time has passed since the roster of those interested was assembled, could everyone please reconfirm interest and I will refresh the roster at the top of the thread. The aforementioned healthy debate also determined that as wide a horizontal as possible would be preferable, to allow evaluation of which houses were potentially maturing more rapidly and could be considered for drinking sooner than later.
Now, here are some musings followed by some homework:
- roughly, if we can get say 30 bottles @ say an average of £50 each, and we have the usual max 14 people round the table, that's about £100 to drink about 1.5l of port each
- 14 people at a table with tasting mats covering 30 glasses = big table
- we need to land a date for this...I will have a think about this, but to allow time to assemble juice, it may be more like June (healthy debate aforementioned was inconclusive as to whether 30 houses of port in June was unnatural...)
- listed below is a starter list of 32 houses
Barros,Burmester,Calem,Churchill,Cockburn,Dow,Ferreira,Fonseca,Gould Campbell,Graham,Kopke,Krohn,Martinez,Messias,Morgan,Niepoort,Offley,Pocas,Quarles Harris,Quinta do Crasto,Quinta do Infantado,Quinta do Noval,Quinta do Passadouro,Quinta de la Rosa,Quinta do Vesuvio,Ramos,Royal Oporto,Sandeman,Sandeman Vau,Smith Woodhouse,Taylor,Warre
Of this lot, I can so far find somewhere to get a hold of all bar Calem, Messias, Pocas, Q dl R, Royal Oporto and Sandeman
Homework:
- suggestions please for a venue that can cope with 30 glasses x 14 people. Has this ever been tried at TBH? What about RAF Club...I notice previous tastings there? Was it up to scratch?
- thoughts on ports to add to the above list, or others to take out for whatever reason
- reconfirm if you are interested, and if you are able contribute a bottle or bottles, which would they be
Now, here are some musings followed by some homework:
- roughly, if we can get say 30 bottles @ say an average of £50 each, and we have the usual max 14 people round the table, that's about £100 to drink about 1.5l of port each
- 14 people at a table with tasting mats covering 30 glasses = big table
- we need to land a date for this...I will have a think about this, but to allow time to assemble juice, it may be more like June (healthy debate aforementioned was inconclusive as to whether 30 houses of port in June was unnatural...)
- listed below is a starter list of 32 houses
Barros,Burmester,Calem,Churchill,Cockburn,Dow,Ferreira,Fonseca,Gould Campbell,Graham,Kopke,Krohn,Martinez,Messias,Morgan,Niepoort,Offley,Pocas,Quarles Harris,Quinta do Crasto,Quinta do Infantado,Quinta do Noval,Quinta do Passadouro,Quinta de la Rosa,Quinta do Vesuvio,Ramos,Royal Oporto,Sandeman,Sandeman Vau,Smith Woodhouse,Taylor,Warre
Of this lot, I can so far find somewhere to get a hold of all bar Calem, Messias, Pocas, Q dl R, Royal Oporto and Sandeman
Homework:
- suggestions please for a venue that can cope with 30 glasses x 14 people. Has this ever been tried at TBH? What about RAF Club...I notice previous tastings there? Was it up to scratch?
- thoughts on ports to add to the above list, or others to take out for whatever reason
- reconfirm if you are interested, and if you are able contribute a bottle or bottles, which would they be
Last edited by flash_uk on 18:44 Sat 05 Apr 2014, edited 1 time in total.
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
I am in.
If we go for the whole line-up we could perhaps go for a "walk-around" format. Imagine our usual room with no chairs and the table pushed up to the wall with 32 bottles on it and a bundle of glasses on another table at the end. Provided we could restrain ourselves to trade tasting sample sizes we could just work our way through the line-up over the course of the evening in the same way we do at events such as the BFT.
Eating can be done in the main restaurant, as has been done many times before.
If we go for the whole line-up we could perhaps go for a "walk-around" format. Imagine our usual room with no chairs and the table pushed up to the wall with 32 bottles on it and a bundle of glasses on another table at the end. Provided we could restrain ourselves to trade tasting sample sizes we could just work our way through the line-up over the course of the evening in the same way we do at events such as the BFT.
Eating can be done in the main restaurant, as has been done many times before.
"The first duty of Port is to be red"
Ernest H. Cockburn
Ernest H. Cockburn
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
I am in, and have Sandeman Vau 1997 in double-magnum, which might lessen the volume deficit.
Walk-about format? Deeply untraditional. I much prefer having all my glasses in front of me, so that I have enough to smell, but can start with a small taste and later can revisit to drink.
Walk-about format? Deeply untraditional. I much prefer having all my glasses in front of me, so that I have enough to smell, but can start with a small taste and later can revisit to drink.
- uncle tom
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Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
I certainly want to get a better take on this vintage, but I'm not sure about the walk-around idea..
The top sixteen brands and an ocean of glasses would be a better plan IMO
The top sixteen brands and an ocean of glasses would be a better plan IMO
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Looks like my trip to London will be a week later than preciously thought - going the wrong way round the world this time. I will probably arrive on the solstice, staying only for a couple of days.
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
If we have really have thirty-ish shippers, I would much rather it be split into two sessions, with a gap between. Lunch and dinner, ideally. More than fifteen to eighteen in one session I find overwhelming.flash_uk wrote:30 glasses x 14 people
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Well that would also make the space logistics much more manageable - 15 glasses per sitting.jdaw1 wrote:If we have really have thirty-ish shippers, I would much rather it be split into two sessions, with a gap between. Lunch and dinner, ideally. More than fifteen to eighteen in one session I find overwhelming.flash_uk wrote:30 glasses x 14 people
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
For the Taylor vertical at the Bunghole on 22nd March 2013 twenty glasses per person were squeezed onto the table.
With fourteen people at the Bunghole, that is a sensible upper limit: ≤ 20 glasses per person. Though 18 would have been more convenient.
With fourteen people at the Bunghole, that is a sensible upper limit: ≤ 20 glasses per person. Though 18 would have been more convenient.
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Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
I'm (still) in, but I do not favour a walk-around. I also want to have my glasses in front of me and to be able to take my time over them and compare.
I may have access to some slightly larger premises; they might be able to cater for us as well. Do you want me to enquire?
I may have access to some slightly larger premises; they might be able to cater for us as well. Do you want me to enquire?
Daniel J.
Husband of a relentless former Soviet Chess Master.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...
Husband of a relentless former Soviet Chess Master.
delete.. delete.. *sigh*.. delete...
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Def still in, I too favour focusing on the likely top 14 - 16
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Please count me in if there's a space. Almost assuredly too young but in the interests of research.... Less in favour of a walk around approach and limiting to top 14-16 doesn't seem unreasonable.
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
OK many thanks to everyone for ideas and thoughts. Top post updated for confirmations etc. Turning to the "how many" debate, I see really only 3 options:
1. 18 ports in one sitting. Suggested as: Cockburn, Dow, Ferreira, Fonseca, Gould Campbell, Graham, Martinez, Morgan, Niepoort, Offley, Quinta do Noval, Quinta do Vesuvio, Ramos, Sandeman, Sandeman Vau, Smith Woodhouse, Taylor, Warre. Start at 6, usual place.
2. 24 ports tackled as 12 then 12. Could start at say 4 or 5, hit 12, then dinner, then another 12.
3. 32 ports, tackled as 18 then 14. Start at say 1pm with lunch, then 18, then dinner, then 14.
Personally my view is that 1 is straightforward, 3 would mean picking a date where the following day I have no requirement to think/use brain, work, operate heavy equipment etc. Option 2 is clearly a bit of a halfway house. I suspect finding a date that accommodates an early afternoon start followed by a out-of-sight day will prove impossible for a roster of 14 people. Hence I conclude option 1 is the way forward. Depending on the learnings from this scientific endeavour, the option is available to lay on a subsequent event to tackle another 16 or so, to include those missed here plus any that turn out to be spoiled on the day.
Next homework:
- Please advise which bottles anyone would wish to contribute. It looks like I can find almost all the 18 listed here and allowing for shipping costs etc at roughly all in for £1100, being just shy of £80pp between 14. So if everyone would prefer to avoid the hassle of finding and drawing a single bottle from a case offsite somewhere, then we can agree to just source single bottles afresh and be done with it.
- The only ones I see an issue with are the Noval (expensive) and I can't find regular Sandeman. Did it exist given Vau was shipped? Julian has offered to provide Vau...if anyone has the Noval it might be helpful.
- To make up the 18 (helpfully being 3 A4 pages of 6 glasses, I picked Martinez, Morgan, Offley, Ramos beyond what seemed to be an obvious 14. If anyone would rather see something different than these 4, speak now...
1. 18 ports in one sitting. Suggested as: Cockburn, Dow, Ferreira, Fonseca, Gould Campbell, Graham, Martinez, Morgan, Niepoort, Offley, Quinta do Noval, Quinta do Vesuvio, Ramos, Sandeman, Sandeman Vau, Smith Woodhouse, Taylor, Warre. Start at 6, usual place.
2. 24 ports tackled as 12 then 12. Could start at say 4 or 5, hit 12, then dinner, then another 12.
3. 32 ports, tackled as 18 then 14. Start at say 1pm with lunch, then 18, then dinner, then 14.
Personally my view is that 1 is straightforward, 3 would mean picking a date where the following day I have no requirement to think/use brain, work, operate heavy equipment etc. Option 2 is clearly a bit of a halfway house. I suspect finding a date that accommodates an early afternoon start followed by a out-of-sight day will prove impossible for a roster of 14 people. Hence I conclude option 1 is the way forward. Depending on the learnings from this scientific endeavour, the option is available to lay on a subsequent event to tackle another 16 or so, to include those missed here plus any that turn out to be spoiled on the day.
Next homework:
- Please advise which bottles anyone would wish to contribute. It looks like I can find almost all the 18 listed here and allowing for shipping costs etc at roughly all in for £1100, being just shy of £80pp between 14. So if everyone would prefer to avoid the hassle of finding and drawing a single bottle from a case offsite somewhere, then we can agree to just source single bottles afresh and be done with it.
- The only ones I see an issue with are the Noval (expensive) and I can't find regular Sandeman. Did it exist given Vau was shipped? Julian has offered to provide Vau...if anyone has the Noval it might be helpful.
- To make up the 18 (helpfully being 3 A4 pages of 6 glasses, I picked Martinez, Morgan, Offley, Ramos beyond what seemed to be an obvious 14. If anyone would rather see something different than these 4, speak now...
-
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Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Hi
Can you please put me down plus a guest, initials of guest to be confirmed.
I will bring the Noval, for the second bottle happy to adopt.
Thanks
Can you please put me down plus a guest, initials of guest to be confirmed.
I will bring the Noval, for the second bottle happy to adopt.
Thanks
- uncle tom
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Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Would suggest option (1), but dropping Ferreira, Morgan, S.Vau and Niepoort, and adding Croft and Noval Nacional.
Reasons:
- Ferreira is not currently a very serious player on the VP front; Morgan is no more, and this was their last vintage; Sandeman Vau was an experiment and, perhaps, maybe an unwise one; '97 is an embarassing vintage for Niepoort, that Dirk admits without caveat.
- Croft, although wholly Roeda (I understand) is a serious contender, Nacional's elevated status deserves the scrutiny of a serious horizontal.
I would prefer a blind presentation.
Reasons:
- Ferreira is not currently a very serious player on the VP front; Morgan is no more, and this was their last vintage; Sandeman Vau was an experiment and, perhaps, maybe an unwise one; '97 is an embarassing vintage for Niepoort, that Dirk admits without caveat.
- Croft, although wholly Roeda (I understand) is a serious contender, Nacional's elevated status deserves the scrutiny of a serious horizontal.
I would prefer a blind presentation.
I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will still be ugly - W.S. Churchill
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
Done.Christopher wrote:Hi
Can you please put me down plus a guest, initials of guest to be confirmed.
I will bring the Noval, for the second bottle happy to adopt.
Thanks
Re: 1997 Maturity Evaluation
So have dropped Ferreira and Niepoort and added Nacional and Croft Roeda. Leaving Morgan and Vau in for now as it keeps us at 18.uncle tom wrote:Would suggest option (1), but dropping Ferreira, Morgan, S.Vau and Niepoort, and adding Croft and Noval Nacional. Reasons:
- Ferreira is not currently a very serious player on the VP front; Morgan is no more, and this was their last vintage; Sandeman Vau was an experiment and, perhaps, maybe an unwise one; '97 is an embarassing vintage for Niepoort, that Dirk admits without caveat.
- Croft, although wholly Roeda (I understand) is a serious contender, Nacional's elevated status deserves the scrutiny of a serious horizontal.
Edit: of course adding the Nacional puts about an extra £70pp onto the cost assuming purchased at retail!
Last edited by flash_uk on 19:07 Sat 05 Apr 2014, edited 2 times in total.