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Are you hinting that there is an interesting story here, or genuinely wondering?jdaw1 wrote:I wonder what management flaws caused Morgan Steel to go bust?
It was the sort of steel company that had bought 100 dozen of ’63 Port. How many other core skills did they have, I wonder.djewesbury wrote:Are you hinting that there is an interesting story here, or genuinely wondering?
But it was only Gonzalez-Byass. Sounds very restrained to me.jdaw1 wrote:It was the sort of steel company that had bought 100 dozen of ’63 Port.djewesbury wrote:Are you hinting that there is an interesting story here, or genuinely wondering?
I apologise for slanderously under-estimating Morgan Steel & Co. Ltd.jdaw1 wrote:It was the sort of steel company that had bought 100 dozen of ’63 Port.
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=86527#p86527]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:Auction, Christie, Manson & Woods, 12 February 1976.
(Reproduced by kind permission of Christie’s; my picture #23927.)
jdaw1 wrote:One hundred dozen Fonseca 1970 sold at £30 per dozen.
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=86730#p86730]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:Auction, Christie, Manson & Woods, 14 July 1977.
(Reproduced by kind permission of Christie’s; my picture #24234.)
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=86737#p86737]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:Auction, Christie, Manson & Woods, 13 September 1977.
(Reproduced by kind permission of Christie’s; my picture #24251.)
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=86740#p86740]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:Auction, Christie, Manson & Woods, 6 December 1977.
(Reproduced by kind permission of Christie’s; my picture #24339.)
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=87103#p87103]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:Auction, Christie’s, 14 February 1978.
(Reproduced by kind permission of Christie’s; my picture #24508.)
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=87110#p87110]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:Auction, Christie’s, 30 March 1978.
(Reproduced by kind permission of Christie’s; my picture #24516.)
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=87247#p87247]Here[/url] jdaw1 wrote:Auction, Christie’s, 29 June 1978.
Sold at £35 per dozen.
(Reproduced by kind permission of Christie’s; my picture #24566.)
.But there are no records to say definitively how it was replanted. Was it all replanted at one time, or was part of it replanted a little at a time? And doesn't anyone else find it odd that someone in 1925 decided this little plot of land was the perfect place to plant ungrafted vines? I suspect there were ungrafted vines there all along and this was an early "trial" version of Nacional.uncle tom wrote:There was a Noval '27, but IIRC, the Nacional vineyard was planted in 1926..
A wine made from 1 year old vines on very poor soil? - I have my doubts...
I think this sounds very likely.Andy Velebil wrote:I suspect there were ungrafted vines there all along and this was an early "trial" version of Nacional.
As a further aside, I think that the English-speaking world gets less than half the story; I would say thatAndy Velebil wrote:record keeping wasn't their strong suit
and are the exceptions, because the source of much of the information quoted here is 'the horse's mouth', so to speak. But I've read so many books and articles about Port and its convoluted history that depend on the English records alone, which are obviously partial (in both senses of the word, at different times). There's a lot published / written / archived in Portuguese that we never get to read about.… was subsequently destroyed in an insurance fire.djewesbury wrote:There's a lot published / written / archived in Portuguese that
Over the years I've drunk the former and seen the latter. I wonder if the bottles that I've encountered came from this sale. What an interesting circle of history, but I guess that I will never be able to know for sure.jdaw1 wrote:Auction, by Messrs. Christie, Manson & Woods, on 12 April 1937, “Rare Wines & Liqueurs, Generously presented for Sale for the Benefit of The Funds of Queen Charlotte’s Hospital”.
Sold at 50/- (=£2½) and 60/- (=£3) per dozen. Yes, lots 116 and 117 each hammered at £1¼. VFM-tastic.
Just found my notes, in which I estimate that the 1863 was probably bottled around 1890 (based on the bottle), so the comment in the catalogue about the wine being bottled over 50 years prior to the sale is pretty consistent with this estimate.AHB wrote:Over the years I've drunk the former and seen the latter. I wonder if the bottles that I've encountered came from this sale. What an interesting circle of history, but I guess that I will never be able to know for sure.jdaw1 wrote:Auction, by Messrs. Christie, Manson & Woods, on 12 April 1937, “Rare Wines & Liqueurs, Generously presented for Sale for the Benefit of The Funds of Queen Charlotte’s Hospital”.
Sold at 50/- (=£2½) and 60/- (=£3) per dozen. Yes, lots 116 and 117 each hammered at £1¼. VFM-tastic.
jdaw1 wrote:
Did that shipper ever own that vineyard? Evidence of same welcomed.
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3267&p=30822#p30822]Here[/url] Dom Symington wrote:Zimbro was sold to the Pinto Espanyol's by my family in 1952. We continue to make the Port from the property although they have recently started to make some Douro DOC's from Zimbro as well. (at the time the sale of Zimbro & Sra. da Ribeira enabled the family to remain independent)
Roncão was as you correctly mention a Robertson property who's vintage brand is Rabelo Valente. Robertson's were acquired by Sandeman's shortly after the war. It is now privately owned and may well supply Noval being virtually "off the back" of the Quinta.
Feurheerd were based at Quinta de la Rosa however Clare Feureheerd (married Bergqvist, Sophia's grand-mother) inherited the property privately, hence the change.
In the post-war years many shippers simply closed or merged into some of the larger companies. At the time both Ferreira and Barros acquired quite a number and now periodically release them as a brand or just a vintage.
Bom Retiro is the name used for the general area of the Rio Torto valley with a number of properties using the name or a variation of... The actual Bom Retiro Quinta, a larger part (approx 60%) belongs to Ramos Pinto while a smaller part (approx. 40%) belonged to the Serôdio family and it has been an integral part of Warre's vintage since 1932 and was purchased from the Serôdio heirs by my family a couple of years ago. (3 Serôdio's have or currently still work with my family and one of the next generation has just joined us!)
The period in question is just after phyloxera when many shippers were looking to buy properties in the Douro. It must be remembered that shippers at this time were effectively brokers buying wines from growers, aging, blending and exporting as required and it is more than likely that they would have found/selected specific lots of exceptional wines and offered them as Single Quinta. After all Kopke's Qta. de Roriz was probably the most famous Vintage Port in the mid C.19! ... incidentaly in the late C.19 Kopke was managed by George Hardy Mason, Maurice Symington's (my Grandfather) father-in-law.
It's not easy to use todays Quinta ownership as the basis for late C.19 wines. Additionally the Douro was very much foucused further west than it is today therefore some peoprtires may not even feature in today's records... I'm not sure if this helps...!
Dom Symington
Who said the Douro's history was easyDRT wrote:jdaw1 wrote:
Did that shipper ever own that vineyard? Evidence of same welcomed.[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3267&p=30822#p30822]Here[/url] Dom Symington wrote:Zimbro was sold to the Pinto Espanyol's by my family in 1952. We continue to make the Port from the property although they have recently started to make some Douro DOC's from Zimbro as well. (at the time the sale of Zimbro & Sra. da Ribeira enabled the family to remain independent)
Roncão was as you correctly mention a Robertson property who's vintage brand is Rabelo Valente. Robertson's were acquired by Sandeman's shortly after the war. It is now privately owned and may well supply Noval being virtually "off the back" of the Quinta.
Feurheerd were based at Quinta de la Rosa however Clare Feureheerd (married Bergqvist, Sophia's grand-mother) inherited the property privately, hence the change.
In the post-war years many shippers simply closed or merged into some of the larger companies. At the time both Ferreira and Barros acquired quite a number and now periodically release them as a brand or just a vintage.
Bom Retiro is the name used for the general area of the Rio Torto valley with a number of properties using the name or a variation of... The actual Bom Retiro Quinta, a larger part (approx 60%) belongs to Ramos Pinto while a smaller part (approx. 40%) belonged to the Serôdio family and it has been an integral part of Warre's vintage since 1932 and was purchased from the Serôdio heirs by my family a couple of years ago. (3 Serôdio's have or currently still work with my family and one of the next generation has just joined us!)
The period in question is just after phyloxera when many shippers were looking to buy properties in the Douro. It must be remembered that shippers at this time were effectively brokers buying wines from growers, aging, blending and exporting as required and it is more than likely that they would have found/selected specific lots of exceptional wines and offered them as Single Quinta. After all Kopke's Qta. de Roriz was probably the most famous Vintage Port in the mid C.19! ... incidentaly in the late C.19 Kopke was managed by George Hardy Mason, Maurice Symington's (my Grandfather) father-in-law.
It's not easy to use todays Quinta ownership as the basis for late C.19 wines. Additionally the Douro was very much foucused further west than it is today therefore some peoprtires may not even feature in today's records... I'm not sure if this helps...!
Dom Symington
Where else but 
