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Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 17:21 Sun 05 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
Which do people prefer, and why?
• if ! this desideratum would be automatically satisfied
• if ! this desideratum would automatically be satisfied

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 17:23 Sun 05 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
Please give the whole sentence. Is there a full stop following or a further ellipsis? It makes a difference.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 17:44 Sun 05 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
Don’t want to quote, but the following is equivalent.
• if the things are red, this desideratum would be automatically satisfied
• if the things are red, this desideratum would automatically be satisfied

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 17:45 Sun 05 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
The second. Just sounds better to my ear, irrelevant /non-existent grammatical rules notwithstanding.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 17:51 Sun 05 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:The second. Just sounds better to my ear, irrelevant /non-existent grammatical rules notwithstanding.
I was hesitating. You have decided it.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:51 Sun 05 Jan 2014
by PhilW
Or perhaps "would be satisfied automatically" to avoid the split.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:38 Sun 05 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
There is no such thing in English as a split infinitive, unless you are the dead headmaster of one of the public schools specified by the Act.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 03:18 Mon 06 Jan 2014
by Glenn E.
The former, I think, though it depends on what is happening. The former us more specific to me - red is pertinent to the satisfaction. The latter says to me that red simply allows the satisfaction to take place, but might not otherwise be pertinent.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:54 Wed 08 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
Image

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 15:54 Thu 09 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
I haven’t seen the context, but it is possible to construe a non-crime.

E.g.:
Title = ‟Understanding a wine”;
Sub-title = ‟journalists rant”, as in, plural noun and verb, as in, a capitalisation crime rather than an apostrophe crime.

But that depends on the context.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:15 Thu 09 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:I haven’t seen the context, but it is possible to construe a non-crime.

E.g.:
Title = ‟Understanding a wine”;
Sub-title = ‟journalists rant”, as in, plural noun and verb, as in, a capitalisation crime rather than an apostrophe crime.

But that depends on the context.
The line break is mine.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:22 Thu 09 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:The line break is mine.
That strengthens the prosecution’s case.

Have you written to RAH drawing his attention to your accusation, and thereby giving him an opportunity to respond?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:27 Thu 09 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:The line break is mine.
That strengthens the prosecution’s case.

Have you written to RAH drawing his attention to your accusation, and thereby giving him an opportunity to respond?
I have now.
(A PM has been sent to the accused, inviting response.)

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 13:09 Mon 13 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
Preference?
• The new widget is designed to be robust to bankruptcy.
• The new widget is designed to be robust against bankruptcy.
And, of course, why?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:17 Mon 13 Jan 2014
by Alex Bridgeman
The new widget is designed to be resistant to bankruptcy.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:30 Mon 13 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
Robust versus resistant: please, what is the difference? Is resistance to something attacking, whereas robust suggests unaffected by things that might even be incidental to the robust things? If yes, I mean the latter = robust.

I can find santafe.edu/media/workingpapers/02-12-069.pdf on robust versus stable, but not on resistant.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 00:09 Tue 14 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
I don't like either. Robust suggests to me something either intrinsically strong (as in triple-ply cardboard boxes) or rigorous (as in procedures). It's a simple adjective. You can't be robust against something, nor are you robust to anything. What you seem to be suggesting is that the widget protects against bankruptcy, or that it actually aids in resisting it, as AHB has said.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 00:19 Tue 14 Jan 2014
by Glenn E.
The new widget to protect against bankruptcy is designed to be robust.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 01:23 Tue 14 Jan 2014
by DRT
This robust widget is resistant to bankruptcy.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 09:31 Tue 14 Jan 2014
by PhilW
jdaw1 wrote:Preference?
• The new widget is designed to be robust to bankruptcy.
• The new widget is designed to be robust against bankruptcy.
And, of course, why?
I think there might be an issue of whether the action is by self (or the quoted party) rather than another. Against is usually in opposition to an action, for example "protection against attack"; even when used shorthand e.g. "protection against water" it really means "protection against water ingress" or "protection against water affecting it in some unwanted, though unspecified manner"; you could not have "protection to water" in the same way. By comparison "to" seems to usually relates to the preceding word, so "resilient to" but not "protection to"; in the "to" case it seems the item can be an item "resilient to low temperature" or "resilient to attack".
However, in analysing your sentence to make the suitable choice, we get stymied by the fact that a "widget" could not be solvent or bankrupt, nor could a company or person be "designed", which makes the choice somewhat arbitrary without more suitable contextual example.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 10:12 Tue 14 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Preference?
• The new widget is designed to be robust to bankruptcy.
• The new widget is designed to be robust against bankruptcy.
And, of course, why?
I think there might be an issue of whether the action is by self (or the quoted party) rather than another. Against is usually in opposition to an action, for example "protection against attack"; even when used shorthand e.g. "protection against water" it really means "protection against water ingress" or "protection against water affecting it in some unwanted, though unspecified manner"; you could not have "protection to water" in the same way. By comparison "to" seems to usually relates to the preceding word, so "resilient to" but not "protection to"; in the "to" case it seems the item can be an item "resilient to low temperature" or "resilient to attack".
However, in analysing your sentence to make the suitable choice, we get stymied by the fact that a "widget" could not be solvent or bankrupt, nor could a company or person be "designed", which makes the choice somewhat arbitrary without more suitable contextual example.
Well quite.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 18:56 Thu 16 Jan 2014
by Alex Bridgeman
How did this end up in apostrophe crimes?

Shouldn't this be a thread all of its own - "JDAW's grammar and vocabulary queries" perhaps?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 17:57 Fri 17 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:Glenn needs a day at Lords.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:13 Fri 17 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Glenn needs a day at Lords.
{Sackcloth and ashes}

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:15 Fri 17 Jan 2014
by Glenn E.
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Glenn needs a day at Lords.
{Sackcloth and ashes}
But is it supposed to be "Lord's" or "Lords'"?

I fear I've just committed a crime because I can't be bothered to use proper quotes on an American keyboard.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:15 Fri 17 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Glenn needs a day at Lords.
{Sackcloth and ashes}
It doesn't happen often; but when it does, it's important that we show how egalitarian this court is.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:17 Fri 17 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
Glenn E. wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:Glenn needs a day at Lords.
{Sackcloth and ashes}
But is it supposed to be "Lord's" or "Lords'"?

I fear I've just committed a crime because I can't be bothered to use proper quotes on an American keyboard.
Lord's. It's named after a man called Lord who owned the land and started the cricket club there.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:22 Fri 17 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:Lord's. It's named after a man called Lord who owned the land and started the cricket club there.
As I recalled, rather too late. Hence: {Sackcloth and ashes}, that being an acknowledgement of a penance.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:24 Fri 17 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:
djewesbury wrote:Lord's. It's named after a man called Lord who owned the land and started the cricket club there.
As I recalled, rather too late. Hence: {Sackcloth and ashes}, that being an acknowledgement of a penance.
I wasn't rubbing your nose in it; rather, answering Glenn's query. Your penance is noted. You have done your time.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 19:35 Fri 17 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
As the person who created this thread, as he who took it upon himself to criticise others, my mistakes hopefully few deserve extra disapprobation. Fair game.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 09:12 Sat 18 Jan 2014
by PhilW
Hmm. I noticed a horrendous crime the other day which had not been picked up; unfortunately I failed to write my proof in the margin, and can no longer find it. I am therefore not accusing anyone of anything. Especially DRT ;)

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 09:24 Sat 18 Jan 2014
by DRT
PhilW wrote:Hmm. I noticed a horrendous crime the other day which had not been picked up; unfortunately I failed to write my proof in the margin, and can no longer find it. I am therefore not accusing anyone of anything. Especially DRT ;)
Whatever it was I plead temporary insanity due to man-flu.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 09:14 Thu 23 Jan 2014
by PhilW
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7654&start=825#p71540]here[/url] DRT wrote:I think the Australian's wanted to call it The Sheila's Cup, which would have been more appropriate.
Surely that would have been The Sheilas' Cup, unless you were deliberately quoting an Australian crime<cough>.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 15:19 Thu 23 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
PhilW wrote:
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7654&start=825#p71540]here[/url] DRT wrote:I think the Australian's wanted to call it The Sheila's Cup, which would have been more appropriate.
Surely that would have been The Sheilas' Cup, unless you were deliberately quoting an Australian crime<cough>.
There are two crimes in one sentence here. Derek are you still double dosing on the Tramalisker?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 15:30 Thu 23 Jan 2014
by DRT
Oops and oops.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 13:55 Tue 28 Jan 2014
by PhilW
jdaw1 wrote:An decanting experiment done with these six would have been meaningless.
Perhaps harsh to classify as a crime, but the accused is known to prefer a high bar.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 14:22 Tue 28 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:An decanting experiment done with these six would have been meaningless.
Perhaps harsh to classify as a crime, but the accused is known to prefer a high bar.
+1, for both the ‟harsh” and the accurate statement of the accused’s preference.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 14:23 Tue 28 Jan 2014
by jdaw1

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 17:09 Tue 28 Jan 2014
by RAYC

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:47 Wed 29 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
The BBC, in an article entitled [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-25940865]Lancashire Fusiliers Gallipoli Victoria Cross sought by museum[/url], wrote:"Our mission is to find it so it can take its place alongside the other VC's in the exhibition."

Lord Ashcroft, who has loaned three VCs to the museum for the exhibition, said the "'Six before Breakfast' comprise one of the most celebrated batches of gallantry medals from any action of the entire Great War".

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 15:20 Thu 30 Jan 2014
by jdaw1
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=71801#p71801]Here[/url] PhilW wrote:we will invite one industry guest, who's costs will be covered by the attendees.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 15:29 Thu 30 Jan 2014
by PhilW
jdaw1 wrote:
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=71801#p71801]Here[/url] PhilW wrote:we will invite one industry guest, who's costs will be covered by the attendees.
{Sackcloth and ashes}

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:29 Thu 30 Jan 2014
by Glenn E.
PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=71801#p71801]Here[/url] PhilW wrote:we will invite one industry guest, who's costs will be covered by the attendees.
{Sackcloth and ashes}
Aren't you English? I think this year you'll have to make do with just sackcloth.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:30 Thu 30 Jan 2014
by djewesbury
Glenn E. wrote:
PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:
[url=http://www.theportforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=71801#p71801]Here[/url] PhilW wrote:we will invite one industry guest, who's costs will be covered by the attendees.
{Sackcloth and ashes}
Aren't you English? I think this year you'll have to make do with just sackcloth.
:shock: :roll:

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 11:46 Thu 13 Feb 2014
by jdaw1
There will be three numbers, and I am instructing somebody to take the average of the better two of them. Or should that be the best two of them?

So if the numbers are 10, 11 and 12, the result should be Average(11, 12) = 11½.

Better two of three, or best two of three?

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 13:23 Thu 13 Feb 2014
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:There will be three numbers, and I am instructing somebody to take the average of the better two of them. Or should that be the best two of them?

So if the numbers are 10, 11 and 12, the result should be Average(11, 12) = 11½.

Better two of three, or best two of three?
Why is higher better? Same problem, different word. Just wondering.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 14:30 Thu 13 Feb 2014
by jdaw1
djewesbury wrote:Why is higher better?
I should have said that the context makes very obvious that higher = better.

But the same question could be asked of ‟higher two of three” versus ‟highest two of three”.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 14:41 Thu 13 Feb 2014
by PhilW
jdaw1 wrote:There will be three numbers, and I am instructing somebody to take the average of the better two of them. Or should that be the best two of them?

So if the numbers are 10, 11 and 12, the result should be Average(11, 12) = 11½.

Better two of three, or best two of three?
Best two of three. Two of them may be better than the other, but you have select the best two (i.e. better is always a comparative between at least two elements or groups, while best is a single element or group based on a criteria).

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 14:44 Thu 13 Feb 2014
by djewesbury
jdaw1 wrote:But the same question could be asked of ‟higher two of three” versus ‟highest two of three”.
hence
djewesbury wrote:Same problem, different word.

Re: Apostrophe crimes

Posted: 16:44 Thu 13 Feb 2014
by Glenn E.
PhilW wrote:
jdaw1 wrote:There will be three numbers, and I am instructing somebody to take the average of the better two of them. Or should that be the best two of them?

So if the numbers are 10, 11 and 12, the result should be Average(11, 12) = 11½.

Better two of three, or best two of three?
Best two of three. Two of them may be better than the other, but you have select the best two (i.e. better is always a comparative between at least two elements or groups, while best is a single element or group based on a criteria).
My choice as well. Possibly even "best two of the three."