Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:05 Mon 22 Nov 2010
Dolamore, September 1981
Prices are £ per case and per bottle.
Prices are £ per case and per bottle.
Prices are £ per case and per bottle.
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Crusted port database
Page 4 of 7
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:08 Mon 22 Nov 2010
Dolamore, October 1982
Prices are £ per case and per bottle.
Prices are £ per case and per bottle.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 08:16 Mon 22 Nov 2010
Are the Croft and Taylor more likely to be LBVs rather than Crusteds? I can't think of another explanation for two dates on the bottle.jdaw1 wrote:Winter 1966/1967, from Edwin Giddings Ltd, then of 28 St John Street, Devizes, now of 15 St John Street
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 18:33 Mon 22 Nov 2010
No, no, no. How could they possibly be LBV when it wasn't "invented" until Noval released their 1958 and then "invented" again by Taylor when the released their 1965? Not wishing to single out these two houses, there seems to have been lots of others who "invented" LBV at various timesJacobH wrote:Are the Croft and Taylor more likely to be LBVs rather than Crusteds? I can't think of another explanation for two dates on the bottle.jdaw1 wrote:Winter 1966/1967, from Edwin Giddings Ltd, then of 28 St John Street, Devizes, now of 15 St John Street
I agree, these are LBVs. But the term wasn't in common useage at the time so it probably made more sense to describe them as Crusted.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 20:26 Mon 22 Nov 2010
These comments beg another question: when was the expression ‟late bottled vintage” first used? Doing a quick search of the Usual Free Sources, I can’t find any mention before André Simon’s Vintagewise where he comments (in 1945):DRT wrote:No, no, no. How could they possibly be LBV when it wasn't "invented" until Noval released their 1958 and then "invented" again by Taylor when the released their 1965? Not wishing to single out these two houses, there seems to have been lots of others who "invented" LBV at various timesJacobH wrote:Are the Croft and Taylor more likely to be LBVs rather than Crusteds? I can't think of another explanation for two dates on the bottle.
I agree, these are LBVs. But the term wasn't in common useage at the time so it probably made more sense to describe them as Crusted.
‟A rather unusual and very agreeable recollection which I also treasure is that of a bottle of Graham 1878, bottled in 1882, which Ian Campbell gave us at his office one hot August day, in 1929; the occasion was the anniversary of his wedding day, and although we rather wished he had chosen the winter to get married, this charming late-bottled vintage Port managed to beat the weather.” [thanks to jdaw1 for the transcription]
The next mention is in his 1946 Wine Primer where it has lost the hyphen (which, thinking about, we really ought to campaign to have restored). I can’t find any other pre-1950 use of the expression.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 21:16 Mon 22 Nov 2010
Balls Brothers of London, Wine List Summer ’82.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 21:21 Mon 22 Nov 2010
David Baillie Vintners, at the Sign of the Lucky Horseshoe, 86 Longbrook Street, Exeter, Devonshire
Summer 1986
Summer 1986
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 22:11 Mon 22 Nov 2010
Peter Bedford Limited, Wine & Cigar Merchant, Leamington Spa and Warwick, 1967/8.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 22:25 Mon 22 Nov 2010
Bentalls, October 1975
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 23:24 Mon 22 Nov 2010
The Butlers Wine Cellar, Brighton, Christmas 1989
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 21:38 Tue 23 Nov 2010
The 1994 Davisons Wine Collection
Price List Summer 1994
Prices per single bottle, and per bottle in a mixed case.
There are no Gould Campbells on the list.
Price List Summer 1994
Prices per single bottle, and per bottle in a mixed case.
There are no Gould Campbells on the list.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 22:02 Tue 23 Nov 2010
The Fulham Road Wine Centre, in an undated wine list giving a phone number beginning 071 (implying not much before 06 May 1990) and containing one wine of vintage 1990 (suggesting ≈1991).
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 16:01 Wed 24 Nov 2010
Without wishing to get into a debate over semantics, I think one needs to draw a distinction between a vintage port that happened to be bottled late, and a port that was deliberately marketed as Late Bottled Vintage.These comments beg another question: when was the expression ‟late bottled vintage” first used?
The test, I would suggest, is the use of the term in a merchant's catalogue, and as far as I know, the Wine Society holds the distinction of using the term first in 1964 for a Fonseca Q. Mileu 1958, also bottled in 1964.
Tom
PS: List now updated.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 18:26 Wed 24 Nov 2010
Hurlingham Vintners, undated list of about the late 1970s.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 19:24 Wed 24 Nov 2010
That's not a bad test to apply, Tom, and Julian and I are on the lookout for other examples. Something I think is worth adding to the criteria as being what we now term LBV is that the wine should have been Oporto bottled - i.e. designed and produced as LBV by the shipper, not turned into LBV by a merchant.uncle tom wrote:The test, I would suggest, is the use of the term in a merchant's catalogue, and as far as I know, the Wine Society holds the distinction of using the term first in 1964 for a Fonseca Q. Mileu 1958, also bottled in 1964.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 20:58 Wed 24 Nov 2010
I can see your reasoning; but if the Mileu '58 (which was English bottled) was shipped shortly before bottling, and had not languished, forgotton, in the WS's warehouse for a few years (thereby making the LB element merely expedient), I would suggest that it qualifies.Something I think is worth adding to the criteria as being what we now term LBV is that the wine should have been Oporto bottled
As the WS appears to have good archives; perhaps the purchase date of that consignment can be established.
Tom
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 23:01 Wed 24 Nov 2010
Oh, yes, indeed. What I was interested in was something slightly different; when was the phrase ‟late bottled vintage port” first coined, rather than when the product it describes came about. There is no particular reason why a vintage port bottled 4 years after a harvest should be called a ‟late bottled vintage” any more than it should be called ‟cellar reserve” or anything else; so someone must have coined the phrase at some stage, and I wonder if that was André Simon. For an interesting comparison, using the same free sources produces references to ‟crusted port” from as far back as 1799, but the earliest use of the expression ‟vintage port” seems to be from the 1850s...uncle tom wrote:Without wishing to get into a debate over semantics, I think one needs to draw a distinction between a vintage port that happened to be bottled late, and a port that was deliberately marketed as Late Bottled Vintage.
The test, I would suggest, is the use of the term in a merchant's catalogue, and as far as I know, the Wine Society holds the distinction of using the term first in 1964 for a Fonseca Q. Mileu 1958, also bottled in 1964.
Also, and changing subject, do you know anything else about Quinta Mileu (e.g. where is it and whether any other SQP has been made from it?).
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:20 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, Xmas 1930.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:25 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, Xmas 1930.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:38 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, Xmas 1960.
If this is vintage 1954 bottled ’56, that isn’t obviously late.
If this is vintage 1954 bottled ’56, that isn’t obviously late.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:49 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, Autumn 1964.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:52 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, Autumn 1965.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:53 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, Autumn 1981.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:56 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, Autumn 1981.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:58 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, October 1984.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 01:06 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, Summer 1976.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 01:06 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Christopher & Co. Ltd, Summer 1978.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 09:14 Thu 25 Nov 2010
Hiscox & Co., Wine & Spirit Dealers, of 146 Upper Shirley Road, Shirely, Croydon, Surrey.
Autumn 1966
The address is now that of a hairdresser.
Autumn 1966
The address is now that of a hairdresser.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 21:47 Thu 25 Nov 2010
The ‟Princess” Port is quite interesting; we usually assume that a Crusted Port is made out of youngish vintages to produce (as the catalogues frequently say) a cheaper form of Vintage Port. But there is no reason why they could not, instead, make a premium version with older vintages, to produce a ruby version of an aged and blended tawny Port...jdaw1 wrote:Christopher & Co. Ltd, Xmas 1930.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 09:37 Fri 26 Nov 2010
Not Crusting, nor the side-discussion of LBV, but nonetheless, from the May 1986 Trade catalogue of Christopher & Co., the ‟best sort of officers’ mess-night” port. (Best sort of officers? Best sort of mess night? Best sort of port? Presumably British Army, so the first is assumed, and the third might be tricky to justify. So let’s assume the second.)
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 19:31 Fri 26 Nov 2010
Hatch Mansfield, September 1976.
Size; No in case; Under 3 cases; 3 to 6; 7 to 12; 13 to 24; 25+.
Size; No in case; Under 3 cases; 3 to 6; 7 to 12; 13 to 24; 25+.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 22:22 Sat 27 Nov 2010
Summer 1970, R. S. Don Ltd., on subsequent page describing themselves as ‟associated consultants of Christie's”.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 22:29 Sat 27 Nov 2010
R. S. Don Ltd., 1968/1969.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:05 Sun 28 Nov 2010
George Hill Ltd Price List wrote:Churchill's Crusted - bottled 2000/01 (2 years blended together, then bottled)
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 23:15 Sun 28 Nov 2010
M W Gilbey, Wholesale Wine List, Autumn 1981
Apologies for the problem with focussing.
Apologies for the problem with focussing.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 00:08 Wed 08 Dec 2010
Winter 1964/65, from Edwin Giddings Ltd
As usual, ‟*Bottled in Oporto”.
As usual, ‟*Bottled in Oporto”.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 21:22 Thu 09 Dec 2010
The references to the Fonseca/Guimaraens Q. Mileu '58 in the Christopher catalogues are intriguing..
A '63 bottling was offered in '64, but in '65 the bottling was listed as '62..
Am I correct in thinking that neither catalogue used the terms 'Crusted' or 'Late bottled vintage', and that the Wine Society retains its place for bottling the same wine in 1964 (in the UK as opposed to Oporto) and then being the first merchant to offer the product as 'Late bottled vintage' in the spring of the same year?
Tom
PS: List updated - Fonseca '06 also added, as Cookie and I were offered it in VNG recently.
A '63 bottling was offered in '64, but in '65 the bottling was listed as '62..
Am I correct in thinking that neither catalogue used the terms 'Crusted' or 'Late bottled vintage', and that the Wine Society retains its place for bottling the same wine in 1964 (in the UK as opposed to Oporto) and then being the first merchant to offer the product as 'Late bottled vintage' in the spring of the same year?
Tom
PS: List updated - Fonseca '06 also added, as Cookie and I were offered it in VNG recently.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 01:27 Fri 10 Dec 2010
This is a bottle that is for sale in the US right now, a store has it for $100. I've been sent pictures which are clearly stated "Late Bottle Vintage" on the original label. I've thought about getting one just for curiosity, but at that price I keep spending the money on other older VP's that are a better bet*uncle tom wrote:The references to the Fonseca/Guimaraens Q. Mileu '58 in the Christopher catalogues are intriguing..
.
*meaning, I know them to be drinking very well and I have no idea how well an old abscure LBV is holding up in a year not known for being great overall.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 09:24 Fri 10 Dec 2010
Is this a UK (Wine Society) bottling, or an Oporto bottling?which are clearly stated "Late Bottle Vintage" on the original label
- can you post the pics?
Tom
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 15:18 Fri 10 Dec 2010
Opps, darn memory wasn't spot on yesterday, it says "Late Bottled 1964" and it's from Avery's.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 22:34 Fri 10 Dec 2010
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 22:37 Fri 10 Dec 2010
And it has an embarrassingly prominent spelling error on the label.Andy Velebil wrote:Opps, darn memory wasn't spot on yesterday, it says "Late Bottled 1964" and it's from Avery's.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 08:53 Sat 18 Dec 2010
From what Dirk said the other night, I think the Niepoort 2005 previously recorded was 2005 juice bottled in 2007, so one and the same.
List amended
Tom
List amended
Tom
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 10:29 Sat 18 Dec 2010
That makes it a Vintage Port. I wonder why Dirk chose not to have it approved and released as a VP?uncle tom wrote:From what dirk said the other night, I think the Niepoort 2005 previously recorded was 2005 juice bottled in 2007, so one and the same.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 22:36 Mon 27 Dec 2010
The Army & Navy Co-Operative Society, April 1875:
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 22:49 Mon 27 Dec 2010
The Army & Navy Co-operative Society, March 1908:
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 08:04 Tue 28 Dec 2010
This is Colheita, not Crusted.jdaw1 wrote:The Army & Navy Co-operative Society, March 1908:
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 08:36 Tue 28 Dec 2010
Yes, but as the thread had expanded into a discussion of the inventor of LBV, I thought that this modest further expansion might be of interest.DRT wrote:This is Colheita, not Crusted.
Re: Crusted port database
Posted: 09:35 Tue 28 Dec 2010
I think at the time it would have been known as a 'Refreshed Tawny' - the permitted term today for a 40yr+ tawny blend is 'Very Old Tawny'This is Colheita, not Crusted
Colheitas have to be from a single harvest.
Tom