ThePortForum.com

PhilW wrote: ↑12:45 Mon 09 Mar 2020 Do we not already have VM for Quinta do Vale Meao anyway?

Yes good spot. It's listed under M alphabetically.
Phil - could you copy the abbreviation list into the first post which you own? Makes it much easier to find!

“VDM = Quinta Vale Dona Maria” added to the official list.

flash_uk wrote: ↑13:27 Mon 09 Mar 2020Phil - could you copy the abbreviation list into the first post which you own? Makes it much easier to find!

Not copy: move. So that there is one official list, rather than several inconsistently updated.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑22:13 Mon 09 Mar 2020

flash_uk wrote: ↑13:27 Mon 09 Mar 2020Phil - could you copy the abbreviation list into the first post which you own? Makes it much easier to find!

Not copy: move. So that there is one official list, rather than several inconsistently updated.

Yes good point

jdaw1 wrote: ↑22:13 Mon 09 Mar 2020

flash_uk wrote: ↑13:27 Mon 09 Mar 2020Phil - could you copy the abbreviation list into the first post which you own? Makes it much easier to find!

Not copy: move. So that there is one official list, rather than several inconsistently updated.

Agreed and done.

Also moved Vale Meao and Van Zeller abbreviations to their correct alphabetic position in list.

Alpha by abbreviation, or by dominant word in name? Perhaps I wasn't consistent: what is new guidance?

PhilW wrote: ↑12:45 Mon 09 Mar 2020 I'd agree with VDM as most obvious choice, and to my mind no more confusing with potential Vesuvio single quinta as Gould Campbell GC is with potential new Graham's single quinta (i.e. we already cope with this issue). Do we not already have VM for Quinta do Vale Meao anyway?

Beat me to it. Yes, VM is Quinta do Vale Meao not Vesuvio Malvedos.

VDM also makes the most sense to me. I know we try to keep them as short as possible, but this is one of those cases where the extra length adds significantly to clarity.

jdaw1 wrote:Alpha by abbreviation, or by dominant word in name? Perhaps I wasn't consistent: what is new guidance?

Alpha by abbreviation, though I wasn't intending to change the approach - should I revert?

People will want to look up both abbreviation to shipper and vice versa. We should have two lists.

Many links, in this thread and elsewhere, pointed to the old location of the list. Most, perhaps, all have been edited to point to the new first-post location.

AHB wrote: ↑21:09 Tue 10 Mar 2020People will want to look up both abbreviation to shipper and vice versa. We should have two lists.

In practice it will be difficult to keep in synch the two lists. Control-F is your friend.

AHB wrote: ↑15:13 Thu 30 Apr 2020I have just been advised Quinta da Devesa will be bottling 2018 as their first production of Vintage Port.

Some pictures on PortugalVineyards.com.

Dv? Could be Ds, but I prefer Dv. Any objections to Dv?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑17:56 Thu 30 Apr 2020 Dv? Could be Ds, but I prefer Dv. Any objections to Dv?

Dv preferred (and already used here!)

I also prefer Dv.

Axel P wrote: ↑18:43 Tue 05 May 2020

Burmester Quinta do Arnozelo needs an abbreviation. BA? BAz? Any opinions?

Past practice seems to lead to BA, as we only rarely use more than 1 character except for disambiguation. Does Burmester have another Quinta that might need disambiguation from (A)rnozelo? Even if so, past practice seems to lead to first come first served, with only subsequent examples providing necessary disambiguation.

I say BA.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑21:24 Tue 05 May 2020 Past practice seems to lead to BA, as we only rarely use more than 1 character except for disambiguation. Does Burmester have another Quinta that might need disambiguation from (A)rnozelo? Even if so, past practice seems to lead to first come first served, with only subsequent examples providing necessary disambiguation.

I say BA.

Agree, BA. Of course, there is also FrA1870 which is also Arnozello [two Ls], a single quinta vp release in 1870 - which we should of course be drinking this year; sadly my last case ran out never ago.

BA = Burmester Quinta do Arnozelo

Done.

I think Fr's Arnozello and Burmester's Arnozelo are the same quinta, just the effect of time and historically limited literacy having changed the spelling slightly (c.f. Vargelas and Vargellas).

I like the consistency of having XxA being the Arnozelo wine, whether made under the stewardship of Ferreira or Burmester. Sadly we didn't follow that logic when we named Taylor Vargellas as TV and Vesuvio as V. Ferreira made both a Ferreira Vargelas and a Ferreira Vezuvio in the 19C - we don't have abbreviations for those wines. Should we?

Should Vargellas become Vg with Vesuvio remaining V? That way we have FrV, V, FrVg and TVg (and TVgV).

We also need an abbreviation for Ramos Pinto Quinta do Bom Retiro.

RPBR?

AHB wrote: ↑07:42 Thu 07 May 2020Should Vargellas become Vg with Vesuvio remaining V? That way we have FrV, V, FrVg and TVg (and TVgV).

The original purpose of these necessitated brevity. Brevity is still very much a desideratum. As is consistency with the printed book. So my vote, in response to Alex’s questions, is a strong ‘no’.

AHB wrote: ↑07:44 Thu 07 May 2020We also need an abbreviation for Ramos Pinto Quinta do Bom Retiro.

RPBR?

RPR preferred, for brevity.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑09:07 Thu 07 May 2020

AHB wrote: ↑07:42 Thu 07 May 2020Should Vargellas become Vg with Vesuvio remaining V? That way we have FrV, V, FrVg and TVg (and TVgV).

The original purpose of these necessitated brevity. Brevity is still very much a desideratum. As is consistency with the printed book. So my vote, in response to Alex’s questions, is a strong ‘no’.

AHB wrote: ↑07:44 Thu 07 May 2020We also need an abbreviation for Ramos Pinto Quinta do Bom Retiro.

RPBR?

RPR preferred, for brevity.

I'm okay with the mildly confusing possibility of someone having to explain what their FrV actually is. I would like to be present for the explanation and, presumably, the tasting. Preferably FrV vs FrV head-to-head, if that could please be arranged.

I concur re: RPR, making the pair (with RPE) more recognizably related should RPE ever be needed.

JacobH wrote: ↑15:35 Wed 10 Jun 2020A new shipper, Kranemann have declared 2018. It’s based at Quinta do Convento de São Pedro das Águias, although it’s not quite clear from the website whether it’s a SQVP. The name is from its owner—Christoph Kranemann—who seems to be an ophthalmologist who moved into wine production via. wine collecting as a hobby. They also advertise a 2009 but I wonder if that is old stock that has been re-branded.

Km? If could be Kn, but that is more easily confusable with Kr = (Wiese &) Krohn. Any objections to Km?

Km for me- it emphasises the two key syllables and, as you say, Kn sounds like Krohn.

BTW, some Ports are sold under the brand of Senhora do Convento. There is some duplication (e.g. there's both a 10 YO tawny SdC and Km) so I presume it's more than a SQVP name. I'm not sure if that warrants another abbreviation or not!

Km preferred here also.

Three-nil is enough: Km added.

PhilW wrote: ↑21:06 Wed 10 Jun 2020 Km preferred here also.

+1

Km seems most logical to me as well.

In the vintage declaration listings 2005-2018 there are now some producers who do not appear in the Port House abbreviations list.

Does this need remedying?

AHB wrote: ↑22:07 Fri 12 Jun 2020In the vintage declaration listings 2005-2018 there are now some producers who do not appear in the Port House abbreviations list.

Does this need remedying?

Please say who is missing, and from there the usual process can happen.

JacobH wrote: ↑10:55 Thu 20 Aug 2020A bit of chatter on Twitter revealed that Quinta da Pedra Alta are releasing at 2018 next year. Assuming the price isn’t insane, I might go for this since I haven’t bought and 2018 VP yet and none of the other options have really tempted me.

Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?

Axel P wrote: ↑06:23 Thu 06 Aug 2020DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020

JacobH wrote: ↑10:55 Thu 20 Aug 2020A bit of chatter on Twitter revealed that Quinta da Pedra Alta are releasing at 2018 next year. Assuming the price isn’t insane, I might go for this since I haven’t bought and 2018 VP yet and none of the other options have really tempted me.

Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?

No objection to Quinta da Pedra Alta taking PA.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020

Axel P wrote: ↑06:23 Thu 06 Aug 2020DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

Ugh.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑21:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020 Quinta da Pedra Alta? PA seems natural. Objections?

No objection to Quinta da Pedra Alta taking PA.

Agree.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑21:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020

Axel P wrote: ↑06:23 Thu 06 Aug 2020DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

Disagree - we usually use the brand not the company (though often they are similar/the same), c.f. Rebello Valente not Robertsons, or Smith Woodhouse not Symingtons etc. So I would not use AR.

As far as DR vs DSR goes, I've looked back and I can't see any Ribeira which is not Senhora (da) Ribeira, so having agreed/defined that as DSR then any prior use as DR is simply erroneous and can be ignored, we define DR to be used for DR ports.

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense, and I would use SL for the San Leonardo brand ports (though I think that brand is only used for tawny/white, not for any VPs?).

Glenn E. wrote: ↑21:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?

PhilW wrote: ↑09:46 Tue 25 Aug 2020Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense

I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

jdaw1 wrote:

PhilW wrote: ↑09:46 Tue 25 Aug 2020Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense

I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

No objection here.

PhilW wrote: ↑09:46 Tue 25 Aug 2020

Glenn E. wrote: ↑21:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:19 Mon 24 Aug 2020

Axel P wrote: ↑06:23 Thu 06 Aug 2020DR Port (Agri Roncao) with 3.000 bottles

The website has VPs (2001, ’02, ’11, ’13, ’16, ’17). AR suggested, without enthusiasm. Dow Ribeira became DSR (discussion), as Senhora da Ribeira, but DR was previously used for Dow Ribeira.

I dislike these, because no one refers to them as Agri-Roncão. However, that is actually the company name whereas DR is the brand name of their Ports. So it should probably be AR. For the record, the company name is hyphenated.

Disagree - we usually use the brand not the company (though often they are similar/the same), c.f. Rebello Valente not Robertsons, or Smith Woodhouse not Symingtons etc. So I would not use AR.

As far as DR vs DSR goes, I've looked back and I can't see any Ribeira which is not Senhora (da) Ribeira, so having agreed/defined that as DSR then any prior use as DR is simply erroneous and can be ignored, we define DR to be used for DR ports.

Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense, and I would use SL for the San Leonardo brand ports (though I think that brand is only used for tawny/white, not for any VPs?).

I missed that we've previously used brand names, and greatly prefer DR in the first place, so switch my support to DR.

For the record, Smith Woodhouse is not a brand in the same way that DR, S. Leonardo, or Rio Bom are. Smith Woodhouse is a producer with its own quinta. I would even argue that Gould Campbell - which lacks its own quinta - is still not a brand in the same way that DR is. It, too, is a (former) producer with an independent history. DR, S. Leonardo, and Rio Bom are all proper brands - the have no history that I know of that is not associated with their respective companies.

A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑17:17 Tue 25 Aug 2020

Glenn E. wrote: ↑21:38 Mon 24 Aug 2020We have a similar problem with Quinta do Mourão and S. Leonardo / Rio Bom. The former is the company, the latter two are brand names. So while we're at it, Mourão declared a 2017 VP (also at minimum, 2000, 2007, 2009). I do not have a good suggestion, as nothing looks correct to me. I suppose the most logical is probably Mo?

PhilW wrote: ↑09:46 Tue 25 Aug 2020Mo for Quinta do Mourão makes sense

I prefer consonants. Would there be fierce objection to Mr?

Only that in Portuguese, the pronunciation of Mourão leaves the 'r' nearly silent. A single 'r' in Portuguese is usually (but not always) much closer to an English 'h' than an English 'r'. So when I look at Mr, it does not say Mourão to me.

But my objection is not fierce. I dislike both Mo and Mr, but cannot think of a better suggestion.

Mo is closer to the way in which the first syllable of the name of the quinta

Glenn E. wrote: ↑00:05 Wed 26 Aug 2020I dislike both Mo and Mr

Agreed: I dislike both Mo and Mr.

Glenn E. wrote: ↑00:05 Wed 26 Aug 2020A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.

Since “the product is identical”, why not use the San Leonardo name and call them all SL?

jdaw1 wrote: ↑20:48 Wed 26 Aug 2020

Glenn E. wrote: ↑00:05 Wed 26 Aug 2020A potential problem with Mourão: they currently sell their tawnies under both the S. Leonardo and Rio Bom labels. I believe that I have also seen that they sell their VPs under both labels as well, but am not certain. In both cases, the product is identical. These are cases very similar to Presidential - it's the brand name that Dalva uses in the US, not a separate Port. So I don't think we need abbreviations for S. Leonardo or Rio Bom... they are both Mourão.

Since “the product is identical”, why not use the San Leonardo name and call them all SL?

It isn't clear to me what the intent is with the new label. I hadn't heard of Rio Bom being used for anything other than their table wine until fairly recently, but now they also sell TWAIOA under that label. Their own website does not have an VP listed under Rio Bom, though, so it seems that it would be safe to use SL as the abbreviation.

I'd also forgotten that Quinta do Mourão is not the company - that would be Mário Braga, Herdeiros. They own 4 other quintas as well. So SL is seeming more an more appropriate.

Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

We seem to be veering toward SL. Should we ask? Please could whoever is best connected send this link, also asking that they peruse the first post of this thread?

Glenn E. wrote: ↑22:56 Wed 26 Aug 2020Also, because we're all pedants, it's São Leonardo, not San Leonardo.

One could dispute whether we are all full-strength pedants, rather than some of us being somewhat pedantic, but your message is well taken.

I’ve just come across a tasting note in my efforts to catch up with transferring them all from paper to electronic form for a Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval 1977 brought by Zak to a tasting last year.

We have ROC as an abbreviation for Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas. What should we use as an abbreviation for Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval? ROCv? Should we change Carvalhas to ROCs?

I can't think of a better solution. It's annoying that it would make them both four characters but given the 'RO' for royal oporto, doesn't seem like anything else that makes sense.

It's also annoying that the two Quintas use essentially the same consonants. Either could be Cr or Cv.

Precedent says that Carvalhas should remain C, and that Corval should then be something not easily confused with Carvalhas. Perhaps Cl?

But if we're going to change Carvalhas, since I am more familiar with it I would prefer to use Cv for Carvalhas and Cr for Corval.

Or, despite Julian's preference for consonants, they could be Ca and Co.

I also have a preference for not changing established things, unless necessary. So ROC remains Carvalhas.

As ‘r’, ‘v’ and ‘l’ are in both, unhelpfully, the best might be ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval.

Fierce objection, anybody?

Works for me

I am, with the utmost respect, with Glenn on this. Perhaps say ROCa and ROCo going forwards? A brief amendment could be made to the abbreviations list for the current ROC to explain the necessity for the updated terminology.

The odds of many TN's of this rare SQVP showing up are slim. Not worth changing what is already in place for a long established SQVP (Carvalhas). The ROCo is probably the best and easiest for Corval.

jdaw1 wrote: ↑11:40 Sun 13 Sep 2020 I also have a preference for not changing established things, unless necessary. So ROC remains Carvalhas.

As ‘r’, ‘v’ and ‘l’ are in both, unhelpfully, the best might be ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval.

Fierce objection, anybody?

Works for me.

Either of ROCo or ROCv would work for me. I prefer the latter as lead letter of next syllable, but accept the former allows better differentiation.

There isn’t passionate unanimity, but the following seems to be broadly acceptable, with some liking and nobody strongly disliking. So decision taken.

ROC = Royal Oporto Quinta das Carvalhas
ROCo = Royal Oporto Quinta do Corval