ThePortForum.com

Glenn E. wrote: ↑17:23 Thu 18 Mar 2021

Justin K wrote: ↑16:42 Thu 18 Mar 2021 Finally after over 30 years of attending auctions a 1961 bottle came up and I got it!!!! Noval Crusted 1961 (Alex tells me it is a sort of vintage as it was bottled in 1964) for €240 plus commission so the most expensive Port I have ever bought...because I'm worth it.

Congrats! It's always nice to pick up birth-year bottles.

Keep an eye out for 1961 Krohn, both VP and Colheita. They're very good.

European Wine Resources - which is in California - has 3+ cases available at $265+tax per bottle. Pricey, but not outrageous for something that old in the US. There's a place in Denmark that has it for $280/bottle.

Saw a few auctions of Krohn Vintage 1961 in Catawiki.com, have seen them going for €120, €150, €170....

just won a couple of lots of birth year (1984) LBV! but at crazy prices for LBV's and neither have a listing on WS, therefore very pleased to have got them.

hadge wrote: ↑12:30 Tue 23 Mar 2021 just won a couple of lots of birth year (1984) LBV! but at crazy prices for LBV's and neither have a listing on WS, therefore very pleased to have got them.

Ha, we're from the same year. Terrible year for VP, unfortunately

MigSU wrote: ↑12:45 Tue 23 Mar 2021

hadge wrote: ↑12:30 Tue 23 Mar 2021 just won a couple of lots of birth year (1984) LBV! but at crazy prices for LBV's and neither have a listing on WS, therefore very pleased to have got them.

Ha, we're from the same year. Terrible year for VP, unfortunately

yeah it was and a bit of a challenge to find ports from the year, so when i do find them i have to try and get them.

I was watching that sale - that lot went about four bids above my top limit..

yeah it was and a bit of a challenge to find ports from the year, so when i do find them i have to try and get them.

If you are still stuck towards 2024 I bought a case of Delaforce QdCorte and I still have 9 or 10 bottles. Wouldn’t be wowing about them tbh.

uncle tom wrote: ↑14:28 Tue 23 Mar 2021 I was watching that sale - that lot went about four bids above my top limit..

because i had only one port from my birth year, i didn't really have a limit on them, after missing out on 2 lots at the end of last year, i have stopped putting a limit on them, as they don't come up very offen.

Justin K wrote: ↑18:29 Tue 23 Mar 2021

yeah it was and a bit of a challenge to find ports from the year, so when i do find them i have to try and get them.

If you are still stuck towards 2024 I bought a case of Delaforce QdCorte and I still have 9 or 10 bottles. Wouldn’t be wowing about them tbh.

thanks, i know that it is bad year, just fun to have and try some,

hadge wrote: ↑20:32 Tue 23 Mar 2021

Justin K wrote: ↑18:29 Tue 23 Mar 2021

yeah it was and a bit of a challenge to find ports from the year, so when i do find them i have to try and get them.

If you are still stuck towards 2024 I bought a case of Delaforce QdCorte and I still have 9 or 10 bottles. Wouldn’t be wowing about them tbh.

thanks, i know that it is bad year, just fun to have and try some,

1984 was not a complete write off. Not at all. Indeed, 1984 can offer solid value for money. The issue, as you know hadge, is what you might be able to find in (or import into) the UK at reasonable prices, now that Brexit has kicked in, creating challenges in bringing wines to Blighty from the Continent. On the auction market in Europe, particularly in Portugal, the 1984 Calem Foz is ubiquitous at +/- EUR 35/bottle. Burmester from the same year is a bit better at the same price and more readily found in northern Europe (e.g., at Catawiki auctions), though the problem with the 1984 Burmester is a high incidence of cork taint. Or such has been my experience. Guimaraens and Vargellas are both solid, if not markedly better than the Foz and the Burmester, though one oftentimes has to pay a premium for their respective Fonseca and Taylor links.

Everything I have mentioned is drinking well at the minute, at or very near its peak, so you might have something rather pleasant for your 40th in three years. You'll not be blown off your feet, though you'll likewise not be disappointed.

Will W. wrote: ↑22:29 Tue 23 Mar 2021

hadge wrote: ↑20:32 Tue 23 Mar 2021

Justin K wrote: ↑18:29 Tue 23 Mar 2021

yeah it was and a bit of a challenge to find ports from the year, so when i do find them i have to try and get them.

If you are still stuck towards 2024 I bought a case of Delaforce QdCorte and I still have 9 or 10 bottles. Wouldn’t be wowing about them tbh.

thanks, i know that it is bad year, just fun to have and try some,

1984 was not a complete write off. Not at all. Indeed, 1984 can offer solid value for money. The issue, as you know hadge, is what you might be able to find in (or import into) the UK at reasonable prices, now that Brexit has kicked in, creating challenges in bringing wines to Blighty from the Continent. On the auction market in Europe, particularly in Portugal, the 1984 Calem Foz is ubiquitous at +/- EUR 35/bottle. Burmester from the same year is a bit better at the same price and more readily found in northern Europe (e.g., at Catawiki auctions), though the problem with the 1984 Burmester is a high incidence of cork taint. Or such has been my experience. Guimaraens and Vargellas are both solid, if not markedly better than the Foz and the Burmester, though one oftentimes has to pay a premium for their respective Fonseca and Taylor links.

Everything I have mentioned is drinking well at the minute, at or very near its peak, so you might have something rather pleasant for your 40th in three years. You'll not be blown off your feet, though you'll likewise not be disappointed.

Catawiki? I see you're a man of culture.

MigSU wrote: ↑23:11 Tue 23 Mar 2021
Catawiki? I see you're a man of culture.

Ha! More like a man who's bored silly when not working. In all seriousness, when I was living in northern Europe I did find that there were a great many wine merchants in the Netherlands using catawiki to sell VPs from second tier producers at favourable prices, with the shipping fees being minimal if one was not living too far distant. Burmesters from the '80s were frequently on offer, five and seven years back (and I believe still), which is how I came to know fairly well its output.

Will W. wrote: ↑22:29 Tue 23 Mar 2021 1984 was not a complete write off. Not at all. Indeed, 1984 can offer solid value for money.

I’ve only tried a few and they were all quite attractive Ports. Reasonably light-weight but drinkable. I think one of the big problems with this vintage was that it was overshadowed by what happened before and after. With ’82, ’83, ’85, ’86 and ’87 either being declared or declarable, you would start drinking your ’84 first, I would have thought.

Will W. wrote: ↑12:30 Wed 24 Mar 2021

MigSU wrote: ↑23:11 Tue 23 Mar 2021
Catawiki? I see you're a man of culture.

Ha! More like a man who's bored silly when not working. In all seriousness, when I was living in northern Europe I did find that there were a great many wine merchants in the Netherlands using catawiki to sell VPs from second tier producers at favourable prices, with the shipping fees being minimal if one was not living too far distant. Burmesters from the '80s were frequently on offer, five and seven years back (and I believe still), which is how I came to know fairly well its output.

I like it, bought a few things off there. Got an absolute bargain on a lot of three or four 2011 VPs, including a 2011 Graham's VP. Ended up being something like €42 per bottle, an absolute steal. Also got a great deal on a case of 2000 Ferreira. Mostly bought LBVs and 30/40 year old tawnies, though.

Won at auction this week:
1 x 1970 Calem
2 x 1972 Offley Boa Vista
1 x 1980 Smith Woodhouse
1 x 1983 Gould Campbell
1 x 1986 Graham's Malvedos
1 x 1992 Cockburn Quinta dos Canais
1 x 1994 Offley Boa Vista
1 x 1994 Martinez
1 x 1994 Quinta do Noval
1 x 1997 Offley Boa Vista
1 x 2001 Fonseca Quinta Do Panascal

@ Mike J.W. - at a purchase rate of 12 bottles a week, looks like you are building up stocks in advance of retirement...

winesecretary wrote: ↑13:51 Sat 27 Mar 2021 @ Mike J.W. - at a purchase rate of 12 bottles a week, looks like you are building up stocks in advance of retirement...

You are very perceptive ws. That is exactly what I'm doing. Retirement is 2 to 3 years off (god willing) and I'm building up my cellar now because after I retire, my purchases will be a lot more limited.

Thanks for all of the views on 84 and i will be buying a few more when they come up.

bought 4 bottles of 2003 Tesco Vintage Port @ £20 per botttle.

I also found a 97 Tesco in the cellar which I remember someone was looking for a tasting?

hadge wrote: ↑08:23 Tue 30 Mar 2021 Thanks for all of the views on 84 and i will be buying a few more when they come up.

bought 4 bottles of 2003 Tesco Vintage Port @ £20 per botttle.

I also found a 97 Tesco in the cellar which I remember someone was looking for a tasting?

Who makes Tesco's VP?

MigSU wrote: ↑09:14 Tue 30 Mar 2021

Who makes Tesco's VP?

Symington's

hadge wrote: ↑10:41 Tue 30 Mar 2021

MigSU wrote: ↑09:14 Tue 30 Mar 2021

Who makes Tesco's VP?

Symington's

Ah. £20 is a good deal.

Recent purchases from C&B's broking list:
12 x Churchill's 1985
12 x Churchill's 1991

Not taken delivery yet, but when I do will probably dispose of half of each. If interested email or PM me.

6 magnums of Croft 1975
24 halves of Vargellas 1996

Arriving shortly. Assuming all are sound then will probably being looking to pass some of these on. Let me know if interested.

6 x Porto Rocha Three Centuries - 500 ml bottles at a VERY good price.

4 × Asda Reserve Port, at a VERY good price.

Mike J. W. wrote: ↑17:22 Tue 27 Apr 2021 6 x Porto Rocha Three Centuries - 500 ml bottles at a VERY good price.

Don't hold these for any long period of time. They are still very nice but have been going a bit flat with age in bottle for some time now. And be prepared for the worlds smallest 500ml bottle cork. IIRC, they were bottled about 15 years ago, around the mid 2000's.

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑14:21 Thu 29 Apr 2021

Mike J. W. wrote: ↑17:22 Tue 27 Apr 2021 6 x Porto Rocha Three Centuries - 500 ml bottles at a VERY good price.

Don't hold these for any long period of time. They are still very nice but have been going a bit flat with age in bottle for some time now. And be prepared for the worlds smallest 500ml bottle cork. IIRC, they were bottled about 15 years ago, around the mid 2000's.

Thanks for the heads up Andy. I'll put them in the rotation for the next few years.

Received a Graham's 90 and Graham's Single Harvest 1969 today - have been looking forward to receiving these bottles for a while now..

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Very nice indeed - congrats. I heard very good things about the Graham's 90, though sadly never had the opportunity to try it.

12 x Smith Woodhouse 1991
1 x Malvedos 1979

A 4,5 L Graham's Single Harvest 1990 Lodge Edition..

So now the trio is together.. I do not think I have enough chocolate for all 3 bottles..

But it is always nice to have one bottle for when you are alone, one for when you get guests or one for when you get a lot of guests..

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Great buy!

Although in my opinion they should rethink that bottle, the fact that the neck has such a large empty portion just looks...wrong.

Although in my opinion they should rethink that bottle, the fact that the neck has such a large empty portion just looks...wrong.

Poor original fills in larger format specials have recently become commonplace - whatever the reason for it, it doesn't look right..

uncle tom wrote: ↑18:21 Wed 12 May 2021

Although in my opinion they should rethink that bottle, the fact that the neck has such a large empty portion just looks...wrong.

Poor original fills in larger format specials have recently become commonplace - whatever the reason for it, it doesn't look right..

Before you toss anyone under the bus, there's a legitimate reason. Port, being roughly 20% ABV, requires about a 1/3 more headspace for expansion than does a still wine at, say, 12% ABV. Very large bottles like that can also have some slight internal variations. So they are filled by actual liquid measurement and not by level into the neck. So some may be slightly higher or lower as a result.

Before you toss anyone under the bus, there's a legitimate reason. Port, being roughly 20% ABV, requires about a 1/3 more headspace for expansion than does a still wine at, say, 12% ABV. Very large bottles like that can also have some slight internal variations. So they are filled by actual liquid measurement and not by level into the neck. So some may be slightly higher or lower as a result.

Sorry Andy, I don't know who gave you that explanation, but it's nonsense. I've got loads of VP in varying formats, and plenty with fills that I classify as IN++ - which means a level within 3/8" (10mm) from the cork. Mags and double mags often have excellent levels.

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑20:58 Thu 13 May 2021Before you toss anyone under the bus, there's a legitimate reason. Port, being roughly 20% ABV, requires about a 1/3 more headspace for expansion than does a still wine at, say, 12% ABV. Very large bottles like that can also have some slight internal variations. So they are filled by actual liquid measurement and not by level into the neck. So some may be slightly higher or lower as a result.

I’m sure you are right that the quantity is being measured accurately but I agree with Tom that it looks bad. I’m not even sure it is a fortified wine thing: large format table wines in clear bottles often look as bad. If it is necessary to have a big gap between the cork and liquid (which I assumed was mostly due to a need to lower the pneumatic pressure caused by pushing in the cork), it would look a lot better, I think, if they either increased the size of the bulb or did what the champagne producers do and increase the amount of foil / wax to cover more of the gap.

That said, I usually see very large format Port in restaurants being sold by the glass. It seems to me quite a different product from, say, large format champagne which is bought to be drunk at a special occasion in one go. So the visual fill level is probably less important.

uncle tom wrote: ↑08:55 Fri 14 May 2021

Before you toss anyone under the bus, there's a legitimate reason. Port, being roughly 20% ABV, requires about a 1/3 more headspace for expansion than does a still wine at, say, 12% ABV. Very large bottles like that can also have some slight internal variations. So they are filled by actual liquid measurement and not by level into the neck. So some may be slightly higher or lower as a result.

Sorry Andy, I don't know who gave you that explanation, but it's nonsense. I've got loads of VP in varying formats, and plenty with fills that I classify as IN++ - which means a level within 3/8" (10mm) from the cork. Mags and double mags often have excellent levels.

I suspect it's all a question of risk, considering the temperature changes you expect the bottle to be exposed to.
Interesting snippet from S. Barry's paper on "Temperature driven air flow through wine corks":

The typical wine expansion coefficient is β = 2 × 10−4/K [2, 6, 7]. For a
standard 750 ml bottle of wine the volume increase over 30 degrees is reported
to be in the range of 4.73–7.4 ml compared with a head space volume in the
order of 5–15 ml. Hence the upper limit of proportional mass loss due to wine
expansion is of the order of 30–100% and is hence very comparable to the
changes due to pressure increases within the head space. This also implies
that overfilled bottles, with little headspace, are particularly prone to wine
expansion effects if temperate changes are large. Anecdotally, manufacturers
have reported international shipments of wine where temperature changes
have been large enough for the pressure to expel a third of the corks. Almost
certainly this is due to insufficient headspace to allow for wine expansion.

While I can't speak to Andy's statement regarding the different expansion for the higher ABV, the above would at least suggest that if the neck were proportionally wider in the larger formats, then the same fill level would be acceptable; however typically many larger formats (especially magnums) have a higher main-bottle width to neck width ratio, suggesting the acceptable max-fill level for the same pressure risk would be lower.

Therefore, some quick maths:
Measuring a random 750ml port bottle, the bottle:neck ratio is roughly 8:3
Measuring a random 1500ml port magnum, the bottle:neck ratio is roughly 11:4
If the max fill level for acceptable risk on a standard 750ml port bottle is 10mm below cork, then on the magnum it would be 10*(11/4)/(8/3) = 10.3ml

I don't have any larger formats to hand to measure, but the increase/risk equation seems to suggest that unless the bottle:neck ratio is substantially higher then the gap need not be significantly taller for the same risk level during transport. As to the initial acceptable risk, that I cannot substantiate; the above would suggest it perhaps unwise to leave less than 10ml of space in a 750ml wine bottle, possible adjustment needed for higher ABV (unknown), and less needed if you're certain it won't be exposed to significant temperature changes.

n.b. While the above suggests that the level could well be higher (from a risk perspective), and I agree that aesthetically that would be more pleasing, I don't think you can fairly call it a "poor fill" unless the volume of liquid supplied is less than specified.

PhilW wrote: ↑09:42 Fri 14 May 2021 n.b. While the above suggests that the level could well be higher (from a risk perspective), and I agree that aesthetically that would be more pleasing, I don't think you can fairly call it a "poor fill" unless the volume of liquid supplied is less than specified.

I agree with this.

But like I stated in my original post, aesthetically I think it looks quite unappealing.

PhilW wrote: ↑09:36 Fri 14 May 2021 While I can't speak to Andy's statement regarding the different expansion for the higher ABV, the above would at least suggest that if the neck were proportionally wider in the larger formats, then the same fill level would be acceptable; however typically many larger formats (especially magnums) have a higher main-bottle width to neck width ratio, suggesting the acceptable max-fill level for the same pressure risk would be lower.

This is very interesting. It also makes me wonder how quickly the pressure caused by forcing the cork in dissipates. I am sure anyone how has tried to put a cork into an overfilled bottle (e.g. when double-decanting) knows it can be quite significant at least initially.

It also makes me wonder how quickly the pressure caused by forcing the cork in dissipates.

Corking machines compress the cork to a little less than the diameter of the bottle neck, and then inserts it quickly before it has much chance to expand again, so the air largely escapes past it.

Somewhere I've heard of fine capillary tubing being used with large format bottles that are manually corked. This lets the air escape as the cork is being driven in. Once the cork is in place, the tubing can be drawn out.

I've never quite undersood exactly how the old boot and flogger system worked - I can't help feel there must have been a third tool at play. If you simply try to hammer a quality cork into a bottle with a mallet, it doesn't usually oblige.

Have just acquired (but not yet taken delivery of) a few bottles of Ramos Pinto 20YO - bottled 1968.
Anybody tried one of their older bottlings? There's nothing obvious on the index.

uncle tom wrote: ↑10:57 Fri 14 May 2021
I've never quite undersood exactly how the old boot and flogger system worked - I can't help feel there must have been a third tool at play. If you simply try to hammer a quality cork into a bottle with a mallet, it doesn't usually oblige.

This^

uncle tom wrote: ↑08:55 Fri 14 May 2021

Before you toss anyone under the bus, there's a legitimate reason. Port, being roughly 20% ABV, requires about a 1/3 more headspace for expansion than does a still wine at, say, 12% ABV. Very large bottles like that can also have some slight internal variations. So they are filled by actual liquid measurement and not by level into the neck. So some may be slightly higher or lower as a result.

Sorry Andy, I don't know who gave you that explanation, but it's nonsense. I've got loads of VP in varying formats, and plenty with fills that I classify as IN++ - which means a level within 3/8" (10mm) from the cork. Mags and double mags often have excellent levels.

Tom,
We are not talking mags or double mags. We're discussing very large formats, larger than a double mag. Ever wondered why older large formats (bigger than a double mag) tended to leak a lot. It used to be a huge problem in the dry wine industry here in the States. You generally don't see the issue anymore because people have figured out filling to brim on very large bottles is not a good idea.

Again, you must remember there is a number of issues at play; internal bottle variations, expansion with temperature changes, pressure exerted on the cork by the volume of liquid inside (which is significantly more on anything larger than about 3L) and ensuring the customer gets the exact amount they paid for. This all means there has to be enough headspace to accommodate all those issues without the liquid inside pushing up or past (leaking) the cork when the bottle warms up from the temperature it was bottled at.

And any modern bottling line sparges the bottles with an inert gas (often Co2, nitrogen or argon) to help displace all the oxygen in the bottle as it's being filled and corked. When filled, it pushes that inert gas to the top and what little remains is what is then sealed in by the cork, thus protecting the wine from premature oxidation.

uncle tom wrote: ↑10:57 Fri 14 May 2021

It also makes me wonder how quickly the pressure caused by forcing the cork in dissipates.

Corking machines compress the cork to a little less than the diameter of the bottle neck, and then inserts it quickly before it has much chance to expand again, so the air largely escapes past it.

Somewhere I've heard of fine capillary tubing being used with large format bottles that are manually corked. This lets the air escape as the cork is being driven in. Once the cork is in place, the tubing can be drawn out.

I've never quite undersood exactly how the old boot and flogger system worked - I can't help feel there must have been a third tool at play. If you simply try to hammer a quality cork into a bottle with a mallet, it doesn't usually oblige.

Having helped fill and cork very large bottles many years ago, I recall we would sparge the bottles first, fill it up, sometimes sparge the headspace again, then use a floor-style manual corking machine to drive the cork in. It was a several person job to do by hand. And There was not an exact measurement as we usually used a hose to siphon off from a larger vessel, so I am sure some people got a little more wine than the listed amount.

And agree with the boot/flogger...no idea. And I wonder how many bottles exploded in the process.

Isn’t the bottle under discussion sealed with an appropriately sized T-stopper rather than a driven cork?

Doggett wrote: ↑16:45 Fri 14 May 2021 Isn’t the bottle under discussion sealed with an appropriately sized T-stopper rather than a driven cork?

Excellent point.

Doggett wrote:Isn’t the bottle under discussion sealed with an appropriately sized T-stopper rather than a driven cork?

I don’t know. But the same issues still apply.

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑19:01 Fri 14 May 2021

Doggett wrote:Isn’t the bottle under discussion sealed with an appropriately sized T-stopper rather than a driven cork?

I don’t know. But the same issues still apply.

To a lesser extent, since the stopper is much shorter.

MigSU wrote:

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑19:01 Fri 14 May 2021

Doggett wrote:Isn’t the bottle under discussion sealed with an appropriately sized T-stopper rather than a driven cork?

I don’t know. But the same issues still apply.

To a lesser extent, since the stopper is much shorter.

Generally speaking, Cork size doesn’t matter unless you don’t have parallel sides inside the neck., Then other issues come into play. It’s one reason large format burgundy style bottles can have issues.

Regardless if a regular cork or t-cork if there isn’t enough headspace it can push the cork up, seep or both when the liquid warms up and expands.

And it is not unique to cork, even filling a screw cap sealed wine too full creates other issues.

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑19:25 Fri 14 May 2021

...Cork size doesn’t matter...