2007 Cask Sample Tasting - London - ?? May 2009

[Andy Velebil]

Andy,

You spoke with seeming authority on tasting cask samples. The authority might just have been that that of a policeman accustomed to being obeyed when in uniform, or it might have come from experience and knowledge. Let’s assume or at least hope for that latter.

Don't make me come out there and beat you down, handcuff you, and throw you in "the hole" for the next 30 years to age like a fine VP. Oh and yes the latter...

I know you've also had some really young ones on the Harvest Trip last year. So you've already got some experience as to how hard and rough they can be. Some are almost undrinkable at this stage for most. Acurately reviewing young VP cask samples is really something that only comes with time and experience. I can honestly say from experience that when I first had young cask samples I gravitated toward the ones that showed the best at that time. Now since I have had far more experience I know that I chose the ones that weren't the top of the heap back then. Why was that? Because the ones that showed the best to me, at that time by my inexperienced palate, were the early maturing ones. Simply due to the fact they were a easier drinking port so young. The monsters, or top VP's, tend to be the ones that don't do so well in large tastings by people not well versed in evaluating Cask Samples.

I've seen this first hand at Port tastings, especially blind tastings. I was at a double blind tastings of the 2003 VP's when they came out and they were ranked/scoring by all in attendance. What we all agree today as the best of the vintage mostly came out at the bottom of the rankings in that tasting! The early to mid term drinkers are what came out on top.

[DRT]

Based on the fact that most of the shippers have offered two samples of each wine I am now thinking of doing two different things with these samples:

1. An offline, being a combination of both physical and virtual, using one sample of each of the wines that I am given two of. Depending on the number of wines involved this may be split over 2 events to avoid palate fatigue. The maximum number of attendees at such and event or events would be 12. It is unlikely that I will include feedback from virtual attendees in any report that goes back to the shippers due to the potential damage that can be done to the wines whilst winging their way through the postal service. This should not disuade virtual attendees from throwing their hat in the ring as this part of the tasting is mostly about allowing as many ers as possible to taste these wines.

2. Spliting the remaining bottles (i.e. the second bottles of those I am given two of and any bottles that I am given only one of) into 3 or 4 smaller bottles and distributing to 3 or 4 people who are prepared to spend almost every night for 2 or 3 weeks tasting these wines and giving them a proper evaluation. As this is the serious part of the evauation, I do not believe that this option can include sending samples through the post either in the UK or internationally as the wines will surely suffer from being opened and then shipped to wherever over a period of days. This will therefore present a significant logistical challenge to anyone who wants to participate in this part of the tasting.

Regardless of whether or not you are in the group of 8 who have already expressed an interest, please let me know if you would want to participate in 1, 2 or both. Please only express and interest in 2 if you intend making a serious attempt at doing it properly. At this point, based on previous expressions of interest, I believe the willing volunteers are as follows:

Option 1:

1. DRT
2. Benread
3. JacobH
4. AHB
5. Christopher
6. Uncle Tom
7. JDAW (virtual attendee)
8. Glenn E.
9. Andy V (virtual attendee)

Option 2:

1. DRT
2. AHB

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

i would love to take part in the virtual one..I'll email you to discuss it.

[DRT]

i would love to take part in the virtual one..I'll email you to discuss it.

List updated

[jdaw1]

It is unlikely that I will include feedback from virtual attendees in any report that goes back to the shippers due to the potential damage that can be done to the wines whilst winging their way through the postal service.

Agreed. But in which case include me in only if that doesn’t cause anybody else to be excluded.

And if I’m out, send me samples of those few (2 ≤ few ≤ 5) that are candidates to be bought for a young son and a young nephew.

[RonnieRoots]

Andy is spot on with his replies. When tasting barrel samples, it is not only important to see what the port tastes like, but you should also know the usual profile of the producer. For example: if you taste the young Taylor, and it is actually drinking well, you should doubt the quality. The 2003 was so incredibly tannic and acidic that it literally brought tears to my eyes. A classic Taylor I would say. Fonseca is completely different, and much more approachable when young. The 2000 was great to drink until 2004/2005 when it shut down. More important than actual enjoyment, or drinkability, you will want to look for the following:
- producer profile
- complexity
- (tannic) structure
- depth

Because of the incredible tannins of these young ports, it's important to clean your palate as much as you can.

[JacobH]

[...]you should also know the usual profile of the producer.

- serve double blind...that is the only truly fair way to do it.

I wonder how to reconcile these comments. My thought, initially, would be that blind would be the only fair way of doing it, but I see the logic in RonnieRoots’ statement (especially as some Ports, such as the Niepoort Secundum are now being blended to mature young). Perhaps the participants in group 2 could do a non-blind re-evaluation?

[Andy Velebil]

At this stage you are soley basing it on whats in the glass. Knowing who made it is, IMO, something you shouldn't know until your done writting your TN's on them. Something we could debate forever, and not to hijack the thread, but it removes any pre-concieved notions that one may have about a house. It lets the wine speak for itself.

[jdaw1]

It lets the wine speak for itself.

But some people want the wine to speak for how it will be in twenty years.

[Glenn E.]

It lets the wine speak for itself.

But some people want the wine to speak for how it will be in twenty years.

That's why you go back after doing the blind tasting and add commentary to your notes based on the producer.

Put it this way: if the only reason you can perceive the house style in a young Port is if you know who's house it is and can look specifically for those characteristics, then the house style is not being properly represented by the Port. The house style should be apparent even when you do not know which house it is.

Let the Port speak for itself, then go back later to determine whether or not it is properly representing its producer and potential for aging.

[jdaw1]

My understanding of the recommendation is now as follows.

1. Taste blind. Take notes. Reach no conclusions.
2. Reveal producer names, and compare tasting notes to that producer’s style.
   • Houses with a full-bodied reputation, and an approachable cask sample, haven’t done so well this year.
   • Houses with a lighter reputation, and an approachable cask sample, are presumably on par?
   • Houses with a full-bodied reputation, and a horribly tannic cask sample, are presumably on par?
   • Houses with a lighter reputation, and a horribly tannic cask sample, are what?

[DRT]

Some further changes to my thoughts on the organisation of this as a result of various conversations by PM and email.

1. The off-line will be limited to 8 wines to avoid palate fatigue. The maximum number of attendees will be capped at 10 rather than 12 to ensure we can have decent sized pours from each bottle.

2. The evaluation of the samples over a period of a few days will be arranged by email rather than here as it will only involve a very small group, probably no more than three due to the amount of wine required to do it properly.

3. Depending on how many samples I recieve and the size of each sample (probably either half bottles or 750ml bottles) a second off-line may be arranged separately. I will not know whether or not this is possible until the samples actually arrive and I know what volume of wine I have to play with.

4. Given that the off-line part of this will be on a smaller scale than I (rather unrealistically and optomistically) thought it would be I would suggest that The Crusting Pipe is the most suitable venue.

Derek

[DRT]

US contingent: please see this.

Sorry, you will have to try to find some cask samples of 07VP from a US source.

[Glenn E.]

That seems prudent, though disappointing.

No update yet on my travel. I'm still working on it, but since my immediate supervisor is in the hospital in Dublin right now it is difficult to get approval for business travel. If I wanted to take vacation... no problem, the EVP here in Seattle could sign off on that. But I'm trying to make this a combined trip to keep my costs down.

[jdaw1]

US contingent: please see this.

Sorry, you will have to try to find some cask samples of 07VP from a US source.

That seems prudent, though disappointing.

Prudent, respectful, and disappointing. The right thing to do.

[DRT]

Some further changes to my thoughts on the organisation of this as a result of various conversations by PM and email.

1. The off-line will be limited to 8 wines to avoid palate fatigue. The maximum number of attendees will be capped at 10 rather than 12 to ensure we can have decent sized pours from each bottle.

2. The evaluation of the samples over a period of a few days will be arranged by email rather than here as it will only involve a very small group, probably no more than three due to the amount of wine required to do it properly.

3. Depending on how many samples I recieve and the size of each sample (probably either half bottles or 750ml bottles) a second off-line may be arranged separately. I will not know whether or not this is possible until the samples actually arrive and I know what volume of wine I have to play with.

4. Given that the off-line part of this will be on a smaller scale than I (rather unrealistically and optomistically) thought it would be I would suggest that The Crusting Pipe is the most suitable venue.

Derek

1. May have to be scaled down further as I now know that a number of the samples I will recieve will be 375ml bottles. Apologies for falsely raising expectations but I will only have what I am very kindly given by each producer.

2. Will proceed as stated above but will perhaps involve fewer people than I had hoped due to availability of wine.

3. Is now unlikely to happen.

4. Stands unaffected.

[Glenn E.]

Since my company isn't being efficient about responding to my travel request, I'm going to have to cancel my plans to attend this tasting in person. While I would really love to attend, it doesn't seem cost effective compared to two or three trips to NYC for tastings. So I'll step aside and let someone else who can reach London more economically participate.

If there is another change in plans for the tasting and you do decide to send tasting samples via postal service, I would love to be included in that group.

[Axel P]

Derek,

could you disclose already which Ports you will be tasting since I will be opeing the same then to discuss them with you virtually.

Axel

[DRT]

This tasting will now be combined with the one planned for 20th May. See here.

Axel - all wines are being tasted blind so I will not be revealing which ones I have until the end of May.